Independent Music Business with The Living Strange - Elijah Sokolow

Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, definitely. I've been listening to your music and, you know, I get into these emotional stuck places. And luckily for me, I have just two of your songs right on my desktop. So I'll just hit play and it's just, I've left them there because I've had so many songs come across my desk, but this one particular MP3 I have left on my desk for the last, like two months I put it on and all of a sudden it just blasts me past where I've been stuck. And so I just want to thank you so much for th
Thank you for listening. I really appreciate
It. Definitely. And if it's cool with you after our chat, I would love to play the song. Is
That cool? 100%. Yeah.
Okay. Okay. Let's talk about, I'm so Strange. So where did you come up with the song?
This song used to, I kind of rewrote a previous song that I made, because I thought that the melody was really good, but just the lyrics could have been better and the structure could have been better. So I made this song essentially for me, I wanted to write a mission statement for my band and something that, you know, we could kind of play like as the first song at our show, just so people know what they're getting into. We're a band that, you know, we encourage individualism and people expressing themselves, you know, in a safe way. I feel like ultimately I've always felt like I was kind of on the outside of things, you know, maybe socially or, you know, musically or just, you know, growing up.
I wasn't ever a person with a ton of friends. Like I was always someone with, you know, a couple of go-to friends that I was super close with, but I kind of always felt like there was some sort of memo that I didn't get or something that everybody else got. And because of that, I kind of wanted to make a song that I wish I could've listened to at that time. Like, I think about myself, you know, at school maybe, or at a party or something, and just feeling like I'm having a hard time connecting with, you know, the people on, around, and ultimately what I wish I could've seen at that time, which I feel like I see now is just kind of like that's, you know, sometimes your differences are the things that people might pick on you for are things to be celebrated, you know?
And it's kinda cool to just be your authentic self. So for me, I've yeah, because I've always felt kind of out of place. I wanted to just make a song that kind of was like saying, you know, I'm out of place that I'm like, I'm rocking it. Like that's, you know, especially cause the first verse has a lyric. I used to have a family. Now, all I have is therapy. I feel like some, one thing that felt very isolating, growing up, dealing with family-related issues. Everyone has them in their own way at their own time. But growing up it's just kind of was kind of taboo to talk about, like, you don't walk up to your friends and you're like, Hey, this terrible thing happened. So I feel like, I don't know, like that part accepting that like, you know, the things that might, we might feel kind of ashamed about or embarrassed to talk about, ultimately that everybody has them.
And then also like in the second verse, one of my favorite lyrics I had was I went from Nickelodeon to watching you shoot heroin. And I feel like I really wanted to just kind of capture like how I felt being thrust into adulthood, like at a time where it just feels like the world is such a mess. And ultimately, like I get that the world's always been crazy to some degree, but I feel like we're in a bit of uncharted territory or at least I am. And because of that, it's like, I don't feel like I was prepared for this. You know, I feel like one day I was watching cartoons and then the next thing I'm like, holy shit. So my point is, yeah, I think it's, it's really cool to like, you know, be yourself it's, you know, if you're struggling with something or going through something that ultimately, you know, everyone has their own version of that.
And, and, and on the inside, everyone's kind of a weirdo. So having, creating a space where people can be themselves and is kind of what, what I'm all about, what the band is all about.
I love that. I love that. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. It's just like, for one thing, it's like, when I, when I see you and like, I, you know, saw some of your videos on the Youtube and I'm listening to the music and it just, it kind of reminds me of just like, like a modern day Nirvana.
Yeah.
Yeah. Like I remember I was a kid listening to Nirvana and the way that music moved me and I guess it moved so many other people too, but, and then now modern day right now, and you know, for the last few months I've just been, you know, listening specifically to that song. And it's just like, like, like I said, I, cause I'm working on some inner stuff right now and I'm just stuck over and over again. And it's, it's, it's a progression I'm learning, it's a practice. And as a young adult, you learn to apply the practices and stuff, but yeah, I'll just turn it on. And it's like, you know, they say, and who's they. And they say, and you know, we're all like as artists, music as one, and we have all these emotions and, and by, you know, expressing these emotions and these lyrics and these messages, we all feel the same thing.
So I mean, the feeling that I feel is just like, and then I, then I listened to it and that rural, or just like goes out of my skin and burst out of my skin. So I can, now I can identify and imagine like, yeah, that's how you were feeling in school. I felt like that in school. And we feel like unexpressed, you know, we feel like all this stuff is happening and we were not able to, you know, talk to people about it. And so you're putting it through your music. And I mean, yeah.
When, especially when, you know, you're dealing with things kind of beyond your experience or like beyond your, like, I don't know, scope of like, like beyond your mental bandwidth. I think that that's, for me when music, a lot of the time is it's most helpful. Right. I mean, you know, when sometimes you just can't even, you might not be able to put into words how you're feeling, but then you hear a song and you know, you, you get the same satisfaction.
Yeah. And you're like, I'm so Strange. And it's like, yeah. So am I, I'm so Strange. Like, I am so Strange. Like I am, you know, so it's like, it's like, I connect to it. And I mean, I feel like, you know, a lot of people feel like you and a lot of people feel like me and, and even more so as the world's happening right now for the people who are like understanding the isolation and, and like, what is happening in the world, this is like, this is like, beyond like, like we're, we're talking about one thing and then another, and then it's just like this, just like, you know, hit the home, run, like what is really going on? And it's like, oh my God. And all we have right now is our writing our heart, our soul, our emotions, you know, poetry and, and, you know, thank God for songwriters like yourself and thank God for your bandmates.
And are you guys able to make music? So I know you can make music right now. You have all your equipment with you and your band mates. They're not with you. So are you able to send vials online to still?
Yeah. So it's, we're all, you know, like super, I don't know how to put it. Like we were kind of, we all have like a workforce mentality. And what was really helpful is before this time we had recorded all of the instrumentals for like five new songs. So they just need vocals. So I can just finish those and mix them on my own time. And then we'll have five new songs. So it's really convenient because we're not sitting there saying, oh man, like, we need to get together to record that. And with new music, it's kind of, you know, super easy to just come up with something, record it, send it and kind of collaborate that way.
And we're even making videos remotely. Like we made one video of us playing our most recent song that we put out called in another life where we recorded and filmed each of us playing the song. And then we just put it all together. And we said it was the quarantine edition or whatever version of the song. So the video editor is Nico who plays keyboard and bass. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad. Cause he has, is kind of new to that, but he's picked up at it really fast. And because we like to make a lot of videos, like we like to make a music video for any song we do.
And usually at that, like, you know, maybe a lyric video or like other stuff, it's just like super helpful to be able to do that without another person because we already worked together really well. So it's easy to communicate. He put that together and we actually today started working on a cartoon animated video that we're making for another song because we're just, we got to think out of the box. So it's like, how can we make a video given that we're not all in the same place right now? One way is to just have it be animation,
Do animation too. I mean, cause I know my cousin, he's a lead animator on the TV show Archer and I know animation folks and that takes a lot of time. And
That's super impressive. As far as you said, your cousin.
Yeah.
I think animation's great. Nico is not in quotes an animator, but we're just doing cartoon animation where essentially he has a, I don't even know what it's called, but it's a piece of technology. I'm sure people who know what this is called are going to laugh at me. Like I used to date someone who had this, a stylist that you can draw something and it shows up digitally on your computer.
Apple, apple has one.
Yeah. And point is we have like our logo, which is like this character that we named monk. Cause he's like a one eyed monkey. And essentially Nico is just drawing, you know, short frame, short frame, animation around him. Then we have a narrative now that we've like started working on today and we're going to put ourselves in there, but like the way we're just doing it as it's not like super professional animation, it's just, it's, it's kind of like a digital flip book. Got it.
Okay. So I I'm a doodler. I do it all. And actually I am so obsessed with doodling that I have a, I have a folder on my device and there are, there are about like seven there's. I think there's 27. I think there's like 27. Maybe that number's a little high, but there's like 27 different apps you can download for free their doodle app. So yeah, I'm actually wanting to explore that more myself and just, yeah, you can like put photos or videos and then you can just like doodle around it. So it's not like, so, okay. I was thinking full on like bugs, bony cartoon animation, so cool. That that's very innovative. That's awesome.
Thank you. I think it's, I think it's fun. I mean, obviously while I wish that I could see my friends and play music with them, cause there's really nothing better than that. I appreciate having to create something with a set of limitations that we couldn't have seen before because you just make something that you wouldn't have made otherwise. And a lot of times you can do something unique that one.
And I really like what you said about what you just said. It's like, why don't we, cause I've thought this for so many years, it's like, oh, we already have so much like, like literally like we, so why don't we just stop inventing things, stop more stuff, the consumerism of this. And let's just, let's just deal with what we have, appreciate what we have the quality over the quantity. Like let's get rid of the bulk, let's get rid of the crap that we don't need and not to say let's stop inventing, but let's utilize what we have cause it's that emotional spending and it's the emotional of needing to obtain something outside of herself. And now's a really great resourceful time to say, what do we have or what can we get our hands on? And in the world of like apps and stuff and like education, you can get it so much for,
Oh yeah. I mean, so many things have changed. Right? And so I feel like it's really important. Like I think a lot of times people are afraid of technology, but ultimately it's really just made doing a lot of things streamlined or faster or easy in a way that I think really helps during a time like this. Cause like I think about Steve Lacey, who's a famous musician that, you know, some of the songs he's produced and released have been recorded on his iPhone and he's just using garage band with like some sort of, you know, USB mic or something that doesn't stop his song from getting on the radio.
You know, it's super, I mean, I, even once I made a song in garage band, iPhone or iPhone garage band, sorry, and, and my bandmates were impressed with the sound design and I was like, this is literally like an iPhone like recording. So I think, yeah, I agree. It's just like simple. A lot of times you can communicate more effectively if you have less elements and especially in music that that's, I think can be really valuable to kind of think about right now, if you're one person alone, you know, maybe making, making something that you can play or the process of writing something without other people there's still room to, to expand on that creatively.
Like I think I feel that way, especially about guitar because I've been playing guitar for a really long time. And guitar has had kind of a relationship with modern music that has, you know, it's kind of put to the side or shunned or not really as in the forefront as it used to be. And because of that, I think some people are afraid to have a super guitar driven piece of music just because ultimately it's not really cool. Like it's not a cool thing to do. But I think that like for me, I really liked the idea of like expanding on the physicality of, of playing the guitar and thinking, okay, well there's been six decades of electric guitar music or seven decades or whatever.
What can you still do with something that's that old? There's still a, you know, a lot of options out there. I think, you know, that might go beyond convention, but the only way to figure them out is to take the time and explore and just feel like there's no, there's no rules. You know, there's no wrong choice that you can make with that instrument. Even if in the eyes of a traditionalist, it's wrong.
A couple of your favorite guitar players and are maybe a couple of their songs that have really inspired.
My favorite guitars is probably Jonny Greenwood from Radiohead. And I think, I mean that band has a lot of good songs, but I guess my favorite example of his guitar playing is the end of the song go to sleep because he just plays this super glitched out guitar solo. That just sounds like his guitar has been hacked by a robot. And I think it's great. And I love Annie Clark of St. Vincent amazing guitarist. I think, let me, I think her best guitar song might be her song Mero. That's a great one, but I don't know.
I mean, there's a lot of, a lot of different guitar styles. I think the best like traditional rock classic rock guitar is I think is probably Jimmy Hendrix because of this is such a like nerd thing to come with, but I'm a nerd. So I don't care four minutes into his song machine gun on his album band of gypsies, which is a live album. He plays a note on the guitar at exactly four minutes that I think in my opinion, for sure, but if not, arguably the greatest recorded note on an electric guitar and it's just so emotive and impactful, super cool.
But outside of that stuff, I mean, there's a lot of other cool guitars. Mark robo is a cool guitar is Nels. Cline is a cool guitar. Is Adrian. Ballou's a cool guitar is for me, Tom Morello is a great guitar, his rage against the machine. I feel like I like people who can surprise you with their choices on an instrument that I feel like has become super predictable. I mean, people hear guitar solo and they think, oh, you know, it's probably like Freebird or, you know, led Zeppelin or something super classic. And I like the guitar. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I like the guitarists that make a guitar solo. And you're saying, was that a guitar?
Is that a keyboard? Or is it a vocal, you know, like what it's like sometimes people who get creative enough with their sounds and their, their harmonic choices show you a side of something that you might never have seen otherwise. So yeah. Stuff I'm to
Cool. Thanks. Thanks for sharing for all the listeners who are really into, you know, music and different guitar players. I'm sure they're going to be like writing these down and Googling and researching them. I know that's what I would be doing. Well, I'll probably do that with a couple of them. Anyway, I have a question. So like prior to, you know, what's happening in the world right now, do you enjoy going and seeing live shows?
Yeah, I do. I see live music pretty often, although that's bound to change, but although I have seen a lot of live streams. Right. But yes, I, you know, usually go to local shows, smaller shows cause I'm either playing or seeing a friend or, I mean, there's a lot of great local bands in New York city that are some of my favorite bands to see anyways. So the idea that I could see them frequently and for cheap is like pretty cool. And even the large, the, you know, big, I haven't been to a big show in a while, but I have been to some really legendary big shows that really changed my life. Right. Cause I was, I was really young and I saw a couple of bands and artists perform the, and you know, those experiences really showed me what a good performance can be like and showed me, really kinda showed me that I wanted to do that myself.
The size doesn't necessarily mean everything as far as, oh, you know, man, I really want to be at the stadium or whatever, but I just mean, I want to, I want to play for people. You know, I want to connect, I want to do that. Watching that as a kid was just, you could really sense how powerful it was to me. It's kind of spiritual in a way when you really connect with an artist and they're performing like a piece of music.
Yeah. I remember one time I was a teenager and I was in California and I was, I was actually on tour with Paul Oakenfold and I erotically Oasis was performing and it's like, I never knew who Oasis was and I love always this now, but I remember it cause I'm like right there, you know, in, in like the front of the stage with like the people I was with. And I remember just like watching the energy on the stage of a waist and then looking to my left and like all these people, there were thousands of people and their energy and the way they were going nuts over this band. And I was just like, wow, that connection is amazing. It's like, I don't know what it is, but I want that. I want to be, I want to be a part of that. You know what I mean?
It was just like electric. That was the word. It was super electric.
It's so funny to the people in Oasis. Yeah. I agree. That's such a cool experience that must've been super fun.
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. When all, before all this happened, you were leaving, you were going on tour for a few months, say lovey, I was inviting, I was invited. We were going to meet up in person. I was,
Yeah. Look at us coming back with this zoom technology. I think
Definitely, definitely. So you were leaving, you were going on tour. Everything got canceled while everything got pushed. And so yeah. I mean, we're all just kinda like, you know, sitting and waiting. Are you, how are you affected? Are you like, were you angry, emotionally upset, like bums out all of the above and I mean, w why not? How are you, how are you taking this as an artist? Because as an artist, we want to just be out there performing, and this is a grand opportunity to do that. And then it's like, it's like the rug gets lifted right. For right under the feet.
Yeah, absolutely. I'll say on a personal level, it's disappointing and it's a bummer. I mean, a ton of shows were canceled or moves, but I like to just kind of try and look at it from a long-term perspective. And as much as it feels like, I don't know, aggravating that, you know, you put in a lot of time to plan this stuff. And like for me doing the bands booking, you know, it's really like a DIY kind of thing. So it takes a lot of energy and time. And when you get a good show, it's all the more meaningful because it's not like someone just called you up and was like, oh, you know, you got this great show that we expected you to get. It's like, man, I did whatever I had to do to make the show work out.
And we had a handful of those coming up. You know, we were going to go to California and played a festival. We were going to go play at a couple of colleges on the east coast. And I was really looking forward to those because I was getting DMS from people that wanted to go to the shows and were like, oh, you know, when you're there, you know, can we jam or we, you know, hang out or whatever, just, and that's like, one of my favorite parts of being in a band is going places and meeting new people and connecting with them, playing for them and, and hearing from them and talking to them about really the meaningful kind of things. So on a personal level, it's disappointing. But like I said, I try and just remind myself a rock show can wait, this is about saving people's lives.
And that's much bigger than me. And it would be too selfish for me to feel, I don't want, I mean, how do I put it? I don't, I don't wish that there was a global pandemic, but because there is, I'm glad that there's this lockdown, I'm glad shows aren't happening because ultimately until there's a vaccine or some way to maintain this on a bigger level, you know, it's just unsafe and safety first. Right. I mean, that's, that's more important than, you know, going around and playing shows, but I mean, it's frustrating on a logistical level. And I think it's just kind of a give and take, you know?
Yeah. Safety is definitely number one. I heard you say something that really peaked my interest about having this foresight. So did you always have that or who taught you that at a young age to have this insight for the future?
So I
Ran cross country, so I was taught short term, medium term long-term goals.
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was thinking that I say I was a psychic. Yeah, no. As far as so
Wise to say that, and a lot of, a lot of musicians like don't have that, it's just like, right. What's right in front of them. So you have this foresight and I think people could really learn from,
For sure. I think it's really important to live in the moment, be present and equally look at your life as a long-term thing for me, a lot of things have taught me to think that way. One of which is, you know, building a career in music takes a long time. I've done a lot of different things. The band is what I like to focus on the most, but I've done a lot of record production. I've done a lot of co-writing ghost writing. I've done a lot of session work and ultimately seeing all these experience. I mean, I'm living all these experiences and seeing all these different routes and things you can do.
And just talking with people who are older than me, who I've usually been gravitated towards, usually my friends or, you know, the people I hung around when I was younger were five to 10 years older than me. And I think that that influenced me a lot because I was getting a lot of wisdom passed down. You know, other people
Naturally, you were
Curious, dude. And, and I, my interests, like I was saying, you know, one of the places where I don't feel like I fit in a lot is my interests. Weren't really the same as a lot of my peers. And they were the kinds of things that older people, you know, would maybe be into talking about. Like, even when I, when I started playing music, one of the first people I played music with was Ben who still plays in my band. And we met when I was 10. And I think Ben was 14. Yeah. And it's, it's funny because 10 and 14, so that's a way bigger gap than, you know, I don't know, 30 and 34 in terms of, you know, what it really means what you're thinking about or what's what's happening in your physical life.
But being able to connect over music kind of transcends that that was really what was my link to everything else. And so that, and then also just life experience, like, you know, I finished high school early and I, you know, have been through a lot, I guess, emotionally, for lack of a better term, I've been exposed to enough self-help material for whatever reason to know that, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day. And it's just the kind of thing of like, I've had to look at my life sometimes in chunks and say, okay, you know, cause I feel like my work is kind of like this, like Sam producing a record for six months for the next six months, this is, this is my, what I'm thinking about, you know, and then it's done and I really don't think twice about it ever again.
And, and I'm just saying, it's like the kind of thing of like, I mean, I'll think about it in that I might listen to it or see it being, you know, listened to or written about. And I'll be like, oh, I'm glad. Or, you know, or I, oh man, I could have done that better, whatever. But I just mean that doing, taking on projects like that for me, has helped me look at my life in those ways because I'm thinking, okay, like this chunk of time is, you know, I guess all about thinking one way. And then this next chunk of time, my priorities are in a different place. And being able to kind of block off large chunks of time like that, it just lets me say, okay, you know, what if I am going to be isolated for, you know, six months or a year, but that means that more people will be able to live.
And ultimately it's a year out of what I would hope is a long life short of something bad happening, then it's really not a big deal. You know? It's like what seems like a huge deal today might really not even exist in 10 years in 20 years, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. So my next thought is you're like, oh yeah. I've like been through all these self-help books. I'm like sell a, have you start, started writing yours? Or when is yours coming out?
Oh, God self help in book. You know, I think for that's, that's the best way I could, I could get any sort of point across, you know, but I do like talking about this stuff and it's, it's a daily reminder kind of thing. It's not something you learn and then you're all set. It's like the point is that a lot of these things are just tools that you access when you don't feel well. Right?
Speaking of those, are there some books or meditations podcasts, people, mentors that you admire, if someone's having some emotional mental challenges and they want a new source of like a go-to like, do you have a couple of recommendations?
100%. I do. I would say first and foremost, the four agreements book is number one for that. I think that lays out a general way to look at your life that I think is conducive to some sort of, you know, positivity or if not positivity, contentment
Miguel and his son at a mind valley reunion. Not too long ago. Yeah. I I've, I've read that book a couple of times and I could read it a few more times and I definitely get that to people once in a while. I think it's a great gift book, a book book, giving gifts. Do you know there's the fifth agreement as well? His son, Don Miguel wrote,
You know, I've seen the actual book in a bookstore, but I haven't read it.
Yeah, no, another book I love Miguel RO it's called mastery of love.
You read it that I also haven't read, but I've heard I've I've heard everyone that I know who's read. It has enjoyed it.
Yeah. It's it's, it's so cool. It's like from an art EAL, you'll appreciate as an artist and I paint, so I just like the, the, the mastery of love and the heart it's, it's a great book, so, okay. So the four agreements and then
Yeah, the four agreements. I mean, as far as self-help goes, you know, I think meditating, or, you know, I've been sent some stuff from Tara Brock that I think is helpful or I don't know. I mean, for me, music has always kind of been where I've turned to. A lot of times if I can't deal with something just philosophically, I feel like it's taught me the most and it's definitely emotionally kind of regulated me, especially when I was a bit younger. And I, I didn't know where to find anything else because music is kind of ever-present. I like the idea of, I don't know of addressing these things in music.
So I feel like a lot of the music, I mean, even music that's super duper popular. Like I know when I was, you know, in high school and I felt really confused or frustrated or lost, or just like uprooted because of the things going on in my household or because of the people I was around, I would listen to highway 61 by Bob Dylan. I would listen to, you know, my favorite song from that time and still now, which, I mean, you could say this is like one of those cliche, like live, laugh, love type vibe, but is strawberry fields by the Beatles.
Because for me, what I really loved about it was the idea of finding solace in existentialism and feeling like ultimately taking away this great value that you assign to things that ultimately are, are trivial. It's kinda like, well, if everything is temporary, then you know, everything good and bad is temporary as well, but it doesn't mean that it makes life that much easier to live. And I'm not really saying that it's like once you know this stuff or feel this stuff that all your problems are solved, like there are very tangible problems that there just aren't really clear solutions to.
And I think part of life is navigating them as best as you can. But I don't think that happiness as a goal, as much as it's like contentment, because happiness comes with its own set of conditions, ultimately around some sort of expectation of, okay.
Jeez. Where did you read that? I mean,
I, I, I mean, I have a lot to be thankful for, and I've had a lot of support in my life and at the same time I have dealt with things that I really shouldn't have dealt with, that I dealt with them. These are just kind of the things I think about.
Yeah, definitely, definitely. You know, it, when we're kids, you know, like we're putting even right now as young adults, we're like put in these situations with things like we shouldn't have to deal with, you know what I mean? Like, come on, like wake up people like we're, I mean, that's the part of the human experience and then that,
And seeing, seeing both sides of the coin too, because, you know, obviously it's easy to look at someone in a negative place and identify everything that's wrong, but kind of what I was just saying about happiness inherently is I think that there's a lot of people who on paper should be happy and still can't manage it. And it's kind of about not over glorifying, anything not, and because it's really more of a, I don't know, to me, it's, it's contentment is a, is a more achievable goal because it's okay to not be happy. You know, part of life is not being happy.
It's like, I think that's kind of more of a temporary thing than maybe some sort of like personal or spiritual contentment where you can be content without being happy.
Yeah. Yeah. And so like the emotion, anger, it's like Gandhi's grandson, he wrote this book, the gift of anger. Cause everyone's like, oh, anger, anger, such a bad negative thing. No like, like, and he talks about the gift of anger is, you know what I mean? So like their emotions are up, down in between good and bad. So it says it doesn't have to be like, oh, I'm just in a happy place all the time or, you know? Yeah. So I would like to circle back around to what you were saying a bit ago about DIY, do it yourself. Wait. No, what, what was it? Di DIY, DIY do it yourself, do it yourself. So you said in your band, you're the one that puts the cap on to actual call the venues and you set up and you book your shows.
And I'm really impressed by that. And I know a lot of musicians struggle, you know, with that part of it. And they want other people outside of themselves to handle it, snap the fingers. It magically appears, but you have the discipline and again, the foresight. So can you talk a bit about your process, like how that happened for you?
Well, I think any artist that's starting out now has to do their own booking and then it's just kind of part of starting out really. And ultimately, ideally once you get to a place where consistently you're doing well, enough, other people will take notice and then want to get involved. But as far as me, I just always wanted to go play and, you know, playing shows is my favorite thing. And so I always wanted to just do more of it, go to different cities, do it. And ultimately there's a great network of people in bands and venues that support local underground music and getting involved in these communities. I started that kind of thing.
We know when I was a teenager, because the whole time before that, all I thought was that's all I want to do is go around and play. And so to me, it's just, you know, being motivated to, to do that. And thankfully, because of the internet, you can get the info of venues or bookers or other bands that you want to play with super easily. So
Let's say I know nothing, I'm a blank slate. Let's say you want to go to Ohio. And so you're like, okay, I'm going to do a tour around Ohio. So what's, what's the first thing you would do?
Well nowadays I would talk to my friends and see who I know that's gone to a high and play it and who they know in Ohio or who I might know from a while back that might be in Ohio. Like maybe someone I knows in college in Ohio and maybe they know someone that does the college booking for their school, or maybe they know a local radio station that puts on shows or maybe they know record store a bar or something, you know, or they say, man, there's this great band. Or if I've never, if I have no relationship to the place and no one I know does either I'll just go to Google and write 10 best local bands in whatever city and go through a bunch of articles.
And if that obviously were written recent, so whenever I would be looking at up, and if I see anything that looks exciting, or if a bunch of the articles mentioned the same artists, then I'll say, okay, well let's try and play with them because clearly locally they're getting some attention. Oh,
That's cool. That's cool. You could even reach out to other local
Artists. They know how to book shows and in their market. And it's really just a trade off where I could be like, we're in New York city ban, you know, say that there's somewhere in Ohio, let's do a trade. You know, you get us a good show there. And whenever you come to New York, we can help you get a show here. That's kind of the spirit of doing that sort of thing.
It's a lot of trust and loyalty. And like that's a lot of planting seeds and watering those seeds to flourish. I mean, that takes a lot of skillset. I like doing those kinds of things, but I know a lot of artists and human beings in general, it's just not their skill set to do that. So you know, that that's awesome that you naturally have that or was it taught to you at a certain age or is it just in your DNA?
I mean, I don't know. No one explicitly said that that's what you should do. But I feel like when I just thought about what helped me, I mean, like what I feel like I've learned from a pretty young time is ultimately symbiosis is like ideal in any sort of interaction. So in business or in friendships or anything, it's just like, if both things are getting what they need, then there's incentive for whatever is in question to happen. Right? So for artists and other places that especially cause New York is a little bit of a harder market to get into, if you're a local band somewhere else, just comparatively, because there's so many artists in New York anyways.
So why would the venue book a random band that isn't even from New York, because ultimately anything that the only thing a venue cares about is selling drinks or, you know, something like that. So it's kind of, yeah, just important that you keep everyone's interests in mind when you're reaching out so that hopefully you can do something that genuinely does benefit everybody.
It's like, you know, you, you go through the great vine of like, who do you know that may know someone that has a connection to find out if it's hip spot. So that's some like really cool research. And then the other thing is like, okay, that rules out, don't start off by going to places that you don't know. So start by going off to places that you do know or where you have some connections and you know, it's really cool because you can just get into a car and you can literally just drive from like Philadelphia. You can hit up Chicago, Detroit, and they're all lined up and you make like maybe a six week tour and you're on the road with your buddies and you're driving around to these venues. And, and, but you're doing the work
I think, doing that teaches you a lot about, you know, what it means to play a show. And I guess why you like to play music at the same time? I do not necessarily think that doing that extensively is that healthy, nor is it a smart idea financially, it's really a balance. You need to structure it, you know, do it when you have a thing to promote, like if you have a record out or something, you want people to listen to it, to go to where people are in, play it for them is a great idea, but equally it's not something to do or a super long periods of time without doing other things too, because I see a lot of people get tired of it because I think they, they might be neglecting other elements of it.
I think that like on a personal level, it's very fun. But just as far as building up as an artist, it's a great way to get some initial fans and equally, you know, making videos or making content that isn't just available to whoever's in the room, but is available to anybody at all times is really a big asset too, because ultimately that's how something can get a lot of attention, but it's, you know, it's not all an attention contest. It's just a give and take. You need somebody to, to want to come to a show in order to be able to book the show. So it's, you know, important to just kind of consider your energy, you know, and think, you know, like for us, we might look on our Spotify and say, where are people listening to us late?
Let's go there and we can see what bands they also listened to. How about we hit up those bands and say, Hey, we looked at our thing and we have some of the same listeners. So we should play a show together. I think fans of those bands would appreciate that because it, from that perspective, it's all these two bands that I listened to are playing in my town. I got to go to that, you know,
Especially when it's with one another.
Yeah. That's everything. I think
I love that. I love that. And let's say what you just said, you said, let's see, have it an album, something to promote, let's say you have any P and you're going to promote. And then, you know, the top venues and you got a six week tour and you're going to go grab some potential new fans and you can maybe even collaborate with another partner in town. Now, how do you reach the Booker about financial payment? Cause the, the cost is on you, you know, getting the car and then the gas food and the room and board now is what kind of compensation as an indie artist. I mean, it's all negotiable. Like it depends on
It all depends to me for it's for, I look at it as trying to stretch out the money we make across the entire tour, instead of doing it as a per night or per show basis, because bigger artists can say, my guarantee is X amount of money. And every time I play a show, that's the money I get. Right. But for us, one show might pay 10 times the amount of the next three shows, you know? And so that's kind of, part of the planning is just making sure that along the way, you know, some shows colleges tend to be able to pay more, to, to more unknown bands or sometimes certain promoters or festivals or events have like a kind of a standard of, okay, well, you know, baseline, you're at least going to get this, you know, X amount of money that for me, as I'm planning it, I just, you know, string along enough of them to know that if we're going to be gone for a certain amount of time, that we can make most of the money that will help us break even, or potentially profit from a couple of specific shows, you know?
Yeah. So then you were the owners, the bookers, they want to bring the people cause they want to sell the drinks type of thing. Are those places more, instead of getting an upfront fee, because they're giving you an opportunity to be in their town and community, it's like a percentage of the bar or how do you look at it with those finite details
And user pretty smaller venues are pretty reluctant to give the band a percentage of the bar. Sometimes they'll say we can offer you this guarantee you, or they'll just be like, you get, you know, half the door or get all of the door after the room fee is covered or, you know, something to that effect. I mean, there's not a ton of money in playing local music shows, but I think that the places that I like to go play have more fair deals. And usually the best deals incentivize the bands to actually bring people like you wouldn't play there now, but we used to play at a venue where their deal was, the amount of people that you bring is the percentage that you get.
So we knowing that a couple of times brought in as many people as we could and it would go beyond a hundred percent. So we were making pretty good money.
Yeah. Because you as an artist and then, and then talking about these kinds of things. I know from my experience, you know, growing up, I mean, I've always been into music. I grew up in the Detroit electronic music scene underground before electronic music was like huge in America. And I went on, I grew up on all these with my mom and dad and I, I mean, I toured was 50 cent in June and I was the opening act for 50 set and unit in 2007, 2008, like all over Europe and South Africa. And I'm like opening up or good descent in front of like 18,000 people. And so I'm having my own experiences in life that was like in 2007, 2008. And you know, through my years, it's like, I'm, we're talking about this now, but I mean, I mean, fine, you go to a music business school, which I did not.
But so a lot of artists who are self-taught or are artists who are who they are and they didn't go to school for it. And I don't even know if they teach this kind of stuff in school, but like along my journey thus far, and I've been around, like, I don't need, like, name-dropping of all the different kinds of people I've been around in different fields, but they don't teach you about these kinds of things we're talking about now. Like artists,
I mean, I'll say at anyone is like, as far as my schooling or whatever, that's just purely business, not even using business. It's just generic. I think that I know a couple of places offer those music business classes, but I would say that it's probably a waste of time, honestly, unless you're trying to be a music lawyer or something or a manager maybe. But I feel like, yeah, I think that these lessons are learned through the, through the pursuit, to be honest, I think that you learn it by trying and doing it and talking to as many people as you can. Well, I mean, that's like a great thing to do. Email somebody you got, Google is crazy. You could find the email address of the person who manages, like, I don't know anybody and say, Hey, I'm a young artist and I have a question and sometimes they might get back to you or maybe, you know, somebody who has some sort of experience that you can ask upon, even if it's not directly your thing, like maybe there's some other type of musician that you talk to and you say, Hey, do you know, do you how, how it works?
Or I don't know, what's you can even Google what standard for this kind of thing, you know, what's the standard arrangement for how you can book a tour or what's a reasonable deal. What, what does a reasonable deal look like? Or, you know, how, how, how does, how does stuff work? How do you get a song sync licensed or, you know, how do you do these things? Because there's now more than ever. There's a ton of resources, you know, just on YouTube, even people explaining this stuff. And I think if they curiosity's there, even if you can't make all of the things necessarily happen at once, you can definitely learn about how they happen.
Couple of things. How do you keep everything organized? Like with all the different apps and programs and where do you put, like all the venues, the bookers, the contacts, where do you put everything to keep it organized?
Spreadsheet spreadsheets are perfect for tour planning. Cause you can put in all the dates and just have columns of all the other stuff. But I think also for me, just writing stuff down, I always try and have a sense of what my priority is for the time period, because you know, it can be a very internal process to make things, but if you're not interfacing with the greater world, then ultimately perhaps a bit insulated and you know, like, so I always try and make sure that I have an idea of like right now, am I focusing on my internal creative stuff? Or am I focusing on, you know, going, going out and playing or making something to share with people or, you know, doing something outside of my immediate creative world.
And thank you. And then lastly about the, the indie tour world, let's talk about insurance and protection. So like when you're going to these venues, do you have some kind of an agreement upfront and where they know all, all of your equipment pieces? So it's insured, God forbid if anyone spills a drink on it or if there's a
There's no, nothing like that. I mean, a lot of times people at a higher level might have gear insurance, which I think is valid because there's a lot of thefts, but for us, no. I mean, there might be some sort of thing that we signed. That's just an agreement that we agreed to play the show for X amount of time for X amount of money or whatever. But you know, th there's not really any sort of policy. It's just kind of watch your stuff. Be careful.
You just hold it next to you. Like it's your baby and you don't let it go. Wow. That's really interesting. Yeah. I went to this DJ music school for one year, so they taught us, you know, everything in and out. And so the DJ gigs I've done, you know, I have an agreement with, this is how much they're paying me. And the one thing about being a DJ is they pay you half the money up front, right? When you sign the agreement and the other half before you go on, not after that's, that's what I really like being a DJ. Cause you get your band, they do not play with the money. They give it to you up,
Especially because I'm sure a lot of DJ nights go really late and there's all kinds of stuff going on. The ultimately like getting the money beforehand, you don't have to chase somebody down like at like six in the morning or something.
Yeah. So there's those stories. And then, so then you just like being an artist, then you decide what kind of venues and what kind of parties you play in DJ. Right? Like me, I'm more like, you know, like New York fashion week, fashion events, charity events, daytime events, like God willing in the near future, who knows if I'll have children or not. But it's like, I want to be able to perform where it's like, oh, okay, like a nanny or someone could be watching my child or they could come with me to the event. And it's like a play. It's like a friendly environment, not to like, I'm not 14, 15, so not too late in the night where there's like drinking and all those other kinds of things. Cause it's just, doesn't align with my personal lifestyle. And in the agreement, I always like have my DJ equipment insured because if I'm at this party and there are, you know, some customer like pour something or gets too close to my drink or like doesn't like me or, you know, who knows what could happen?
They're like, oh, you're too pretty. Or you're like, like I hate you. Or I don't like the song and they're wasted or they get in a fight and they spill something it's like, so yeah. I always make sure, you know, I have that protected.
That's why I think that I wouldn't trust a lot of these venues to take on that kind of liability as far as the band goes. But I think that that's a really smart thing to do, you know?
Yeah. I think more in the, yeah. And then the venues of like clubs and stuff. Like I was in Detroit, right. When like the beginning, when, before the scare happened, I was in Michigan and I was in Greek town with my family and upstairs was this lounge and it was like really quiet, no idea. And, and he's like, oh, you're Greek. And I'm like, yeah. I'm like, no, this is a rotation I can put in. Like when I go home to visit my family and have a reason to go home, like once a month or once every other month we'll of course to see the family. But like, Hey, I can like do a venue and like DJ and stuff, but they have their own DJ controller there. So I think it's a bit different with DJs as well, because you know, they, they have their, their controller there and I guess, yeah, so that's being an indie artist.
And then obviously when, you know, you're at different levels of people handling your stuff, I'm sure they have, you know, that's the thing it's like, it's like a free for all. And there's different tiers in different levels, in different rules for D that's why you got to know like, like perspective of who you are, where you are,
What types of places that you're supposed to be playing. Totally. I mean, it's also just, it's never been this open-ended like in all senses, like music is essentially like the wild west at this moment. So absolutely having a sense of your identity. Like that is really important
And have a bottom base. Like I know in Michigan there's like, you know, the famous go-to places that are like cool places, but like anything that's below the line, that's like a little grungier. If you don't know, it's like just stay away from those kinds of things. So you don't get put yourself in a bad situation. So it's like, you know, making sure the places are reputable. Like you said, do your research, the places that are reputable that you've been connecting with, do you think those kinds of places, do you think maybe have you heard from anyone in your community, do you think they're going to be maybe doing some like online shows or like date night shows?
Some of them totally are. And I've seen a bunch of those things coming up, you know, I've done a couple of those streaming shows and a lot of my friends are doing them and a lot of bigger artists are doing them and I'm sure the next chunk of time, that's just going to be kind of commonplace.
What about the majestic in Michigan? Are you familiar with it?
Not familiar with
That. Okay. So you're so close to Detroit. You definitely need to look up the venues in Detroit, it's really happening and popping. And I mean, I know we would love to have you there, so you definitely need to, you know, do some research on Detroit and
Theater
And make and make and make that happen. Who knows maybe open up for you guys deejaying or something.
We have to play with electronic acts, honestly, because we are kind of semi electronic as much as kind of our music permits. I feel like it's more refreshing if we play after some electronic bands than, you know, for super loud rock bands. Cause at that point, sometimes it's just, it's kind of, I think, a better flow.
Yeah. Well I think we just planted a seed, so that could be really cool. We can like put our heads together and find out who wants to support and, and make that happen.
That'd be awesome.
Cool. Cool. All right. Well I think we're gonna wrap it up and play your song right now if that's cool. Totally. Yeah. I really appreciate you being with me today and sharing your life experience thus far and I honor your journey and I'm so excited to know you and just keep listening to this music you're making and sharing it. Thank you so much for having me. My pleasure. My pleasure. Okay. You take good care. All right.
Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next time. Kyriaki, over and out.