Dec 9, 2021 | podcast

the Feeling of Magic and Psychology with Visual Artist Gabriel J. Shuldiner

the Feeling of Magic and Psychology with Visual Artist Gabriel J. Shuldiner
She's All Over The Place Podcast Season 3 - Episode 4 Transcription Thank you so much for tuning into she's all over the place. with KYRIAKI, that's me. Welcome to she's all over the place. I am so excited and you are going to be too. I have an artist on today. Gabriel J Shuldiner. He is from Manhattan, a true artist, and he's going to share his journey and story with us today. And I am so excited to have him on. We met about eight years, nine years ago, actually.

Yeah, it's crazy. It was that long ago.
Almost a decade. Wow.
Yeah. It's amazing. How time flies.
Yeah, it was art night. It was a Thursday night. It was art night and in New York city around Chelsea, like everyone who's, anyone can go, just hop around to all the amazing galleries, see amazing artwork. And just like, I have amazing wine if that's what you like. And Gabriel was at a shared space and I'll let him tell you more about it. But there were hundreds of artists there and thousands of people just walking in and out of these loft spaces and I was just drawn to him and we had this connection and we had just been like friends ever since, and we stayed connected and I've been able to follow his journey along the
Way. Yeah, that's great. I've been following yours. Thank
You. So w Elizabeth, tell us more about the space that you were at and why you decided to go there?
Oh, the space that I was in, it was a residency for four years. It was in just above Chelsea and hell's kitchen and it was good. I mean, it, it offered a lot of artists, a good, good price on studio for Manhattan. So you weigh under market value and you know, they support emerging artists. So I did that for about four, four and a half years. And in that time, you know, they had nights when they just opened studio space and everyone can just come in and look, go look at art, which is the night you happen to come to did it several times every season. So if I did that for awhile and then I decided to move everything to my, my home, I live, I'm born and raised in Chelsea and I'm still in Chelsea neighborhood Manhattan.
And basically just converted my home into a studio, which creative creatively works much better for me, but it's a different experience because I'm completely and entirely surrounded with my work constantly, which I love.
Great. And then when you first went to the lofts, is that, is the space still there? Do they still support artists for,
Yeah, they're still there. They still, there it's a Elizabeth foundation for the Arts. Anyone that's an artist that's looking for studio space should apply. They have applications out every year. And if you get in, it's curated, so you have to apply. But if you get in, it's a great deal. You get a studio space in Manhattan for like a really good price and you get, get to work with and around a lot of other artists, it's good. It's a good vibe. There, there are many of those places in the city and a bunch of them in Brooklyn. I personally prefer working in my own environment, but I only figured that out after having several years of a studio that actually had to go to like physically go to take the train or take like a 20 minute walk, it's still very convenient.
But yeah,
I feel like on a psychological level without knowing it, I think, you know, cause community so important and as a Yasser, as a yeah, and as a youngster and going and being there and having other artists knowing there's that creative energy and y'all feed off of one another, like without knowing it may be like, it really fulfilled you and supported your journey along the way. And then you were like, okay, I have a strong stable thing going on. I'm ready to be in my own power with my own thing and be so concrete from the inside.
Exactly what happens now, it's the flip side. Like I get so engrossed in my own work. I'm in my studio all the time. I'm like a few degrees away from recluse at this point, which, you know, I find social media helps me with that because I'm so connected to so many people that way. But, you know, that becomes its own energy stuck in nightmare. After a while, if you get like too caught up in like what's going on on social media, it's just typically Instagram. It's just so much Arts kind of floods your brains too much, but I am connected that way too many. But the flip side is like, you know, if it weren't for that, I I'll, I'll say it like, it's a positive aspect because if it weren't for that, I literally could stay in my studio and work for like months at a time and kind of like forget that there's a whole world out there, which is, I guess, one of the issues that I deal with as an artist at this point, which is, you know, it's, it's, it's a very isolating path.
And in terms of like the, the, you know, community, like, I, I kinda, I don't want to say I don't really have a community, but like, I feel that I'm pretty disconnected to like what's going on with other artists in, in, in my own environment, in the city, which for me kind of, you know, it's frustrating, you know, because I'm very, I'm very shy. I like to have my own space. I like to be alone. But at the same time, I know how important it is. Like you were just mentioning to have like a, a community of other artists where to just like, kind of like support each other and the energy kind of bounces back and forth, which propels you as a creative person. So it's, it's, it's the flip side of what I experienced when I had my studio up at Elizabeth foundation, but the benefits still kind of outweigh the, the isolation.
If that, if that makes any sense,
Makes complete sense. And it's like, when people see your work, it really stands on its own. It's really strong and stable and it really it's a masterpiece. That's each one stands on its own. So it really, it really represents who you are as well.
Yeah. I feel it is a field. That's a good breed. I make these, like, I call them, hybridsculpturalpaintings kind of like somewhere on the border between what a painting and what a sculpture is, or isn't, it's kind of a very, three-dimensional very tactile. And basically all my work is in black and different shades of black couple, like there hints of color in it, but primarily like it's basically black on black, on black. So, you know, so yeah, each, each individual piece it's connected. Like it's my whole know, like the piece I'm working on right now is connected to the piece I just did before of it. So it collectively tells like a whole story of how it evolved, but individually, each piece works on its own.
And
Why do you think you would gravitate it to black only at
This point? And I don't know. I mean, I've always loved black. I grew up loving art. I went to like grade school in Manhattan and that was exposed to art at an early age. And well, I wasn't exposed to like the museums to me going to a museum was like torture. So, and I didn't go to galleries or anything. I was like, you know, as a kid, I was Johnson, like, you know, music and record, record covers, album covers and t-shirts and fan stickers and stuff. And graffiti, I grew up in Manhattan. So that was my connection to like visual art, but stuff that was in a museum or in a gallery. Like, I, I just was not exposed to that. But in art class, in grade school, I was exposed to art and I loved it.
I didn't know what I was doing 90% of the time, but I just loved experimenting with the different materials that we had access to. And I was always drawn to black, but for some reason, I don't know where I was told this. Cause I don't remember a particular teacher telling me this, but I picked up two things that I always kind of held with me, which is that you're not supposed to use black in painting and you're not supposed to use tape. If you make a line, you have to make the line like, you know, without tape, otherwise it's like, you're cheating. And I don't know where I heard that, but I
Heard that too. Come on. I know that one, but
I don't know where it came from. Right. I guess so part of the reason that I love black so much, like what, I don't know. I mean, it's from, from birth. I, I could, I gotta have my therapist maybe explain it better. I don't know. I'm just always been drawn to it. But the fact that I was told that you're not supposed to use it definitely had like an effect on me because obviously I'm the type of person that if told not to do something, I'll probably want to do it
Going this for you say what? I can coin this for you. I think it's rebel with a cause has
Bad like that. That's cool. Yeah. I mean, until I got to art school, I didn't even know that like there were other artists that have worked in black for years and it wasn't really, you know, I mean, it's, it's very specific, but it's not like no one has done it before. And I got exposed to like my favorite artists, this Frenchman 101 years old, his name is Pierre Salas. And he's been painting in blacks. Didn't see was like a teenager. Now he's 101, he's like my favorite artists. And I was exposed to him when I was doing another community. I was doing a summer residency program at school of visual arts here in Manhattan.
And I got to have a studio space in this visual arts program, which again was very similar to my other studio space where you're around a bunch of artists and there's all this creative energy and you get studio visits and you get to talk art. And one of my studio mates mentioned this artist, Pierre Salas, who I'd never heard of. And he said there was a show going on at this gallery called the Robert Miller gallery in Chelsea. That's now closed, but he suggested I go and I went and I saw his painting. And like, I just, I don't know if it's ever happened to you with, with art or poetry or music, but I saw this artist work in this gallery and I just started crying.
I was like, this is amazing. And that really kind of helped me. It made me realize that what I was doing with black was allowed. It was the first time. I mean, I knew that there were other artists that, you know, worked in black, but I always had this thing, like, it's not allowed, it's not allowed. It's like, you're not supposed to do it. And then when I saw this guy's works masterpiece, I actually touched it when nobody was looking
Okay, I've done. I've done that two things. I totally done that. I've totally done that. Okay. Two things, one, I'm the kind of person where it's like, if I'm not supposed to do it, I'm going to be like, oh, I'm going to show you how I'm gonna do it. So on that kind of person too, like he's telling me I shouldn't do it. It's going to make me want to do it more that's so we were, we're like the same kids. Yeah. We're like the same kids right there. We would get in a lot of trouble together if we like went to the same school growing up.
Oh my God. Right? Yeah. Did you grow up in Manhattan,
Michigan? Well, I went to school. I grew up going to school in Michigan and then I grew up in Beverly Hills in California. Yeah. And then I became bi-coastal so, and then I was like, yeah, all of my ego was like, and I was like, yeah, I'm going to be try coastal, you know, over, over the, over the pond in London. So I have a, I have a short story that reminds me of what you just said. So when I was a teenager in Paris and I was at the loo and I was looking at this ensile Adams piece and I was just staring at it and I was just really just like doing my own thing and like, you know, solo to standing there looking at pieces intently.
And this one woman came up to me and she says, she said to me, and it was like the best compliment ever. I, she, I don't know this woman, but it just, it was kind of like a sign from the universe to tell me something like, and I've reflected on this, but she, cause I didn't know I was a kid and she came up to me and she said, what do you see when you're that close? And I just looked at her and I'm just like, cause I just thought it was normal. Like I just saw everyone did that. You know? I didn't know. It was like a, like a unique thing to observe, you know, just to like observe and just appreciate like this Pulisic artist and just like what they've done.
So not that I, you know, have penmanship or draw that way, but it's, it's just, that applies to all our in general.
Yeah. You connected with something, something beyond that you can't really explain. Yeah.
Yeah. And the details were just so like important for me. And but, but in that moment, just being a kid, like a teenager and that PR PR international person just coming up to you and like questioning you that it's just cause you know, when you're at home growing up in Michigan, maybe you're going to a public school, maybe. I mean, you're in New York growing up, you have an artist community, but maybe like growing up in a suburb or something, people who aren't in a major city that maybe they don't get that special attention or nurture care and they feel so disconnected kind of like, even though you feel disconnected in a way from other artists, maybe they feel disconnected in their communities and in their public schools. And now homeschooling because of the COVID that, you know, I mean maybe, you know, we all have a disconnect in our own different ways.
So I think it's definitely relatable. I
Agree completely.
So question for you. So how was the process in journey to actionable steps of being represented by a gallery in Harlem?
Well, it's kinda like it it's, it's, it's a long story, but I was when I was at that studio space that we had started talking about in the beginning, I had had a woman just randomly come see my studio and she happened to be an art dealer. And at the moment she was working with a gallery David Richard gallery. And she started, she asked me if I wanted to, you know, I was working with anyone at the time and if I wanted to work with her and possibly through her this gallery. And so, I mean, I was super excited. This is like what I've been waiting for. You know, how you get a gallery is always so mysterious. There are all these like books on it or, you know, forums about, you know, how to get a gallery or if you're in music, how to get, how to get a record company.
And it's like, you know, everyone has their own view or idea, but there's no one right way. So obviously I was hoping for it, but I just didn't know how it would manifest. And I just kept making my work. And then just like you came to my studio just that day, like, you know, it was another day and she came to my studio. It was actually one of those nights where they opened up the studios to the public. So she happened to come in and we spoke and you know, I thought about it and the next day I was like, let's work together. So she originally introduced me to David Richard gallery. And at the time this goes back to 2015, just not that long ago, but it is in a way. And at the time Dave, Richard gallery was located in Santa Fe, New Mexico and they loved my work and we worked together.
They gave me a show. It was beautiful. I couldn't believe it. And then fast forward, you know, things happen. And somehow the woman that I was working with stopped working as an art dealer, she changed her career path and kind of just, you know, changed up everything. So the gallery, because the deal that I had, I mean, this might be too technical, but the deal that I had was through her through the gallery. So when she left everyone that was working with her through that particular gallery left as well, I guess it just happens. So the gallery should be back in my work. And at that time I was gallery lists, but it happens and it was good because some of the work that they had, I was thinking like, how do I get this work back?
Because I don't want it to go into the world because I guess I just progressed as an artist. And I just didn't, didn't like some of the pieces and I didn't want to be like a, like a snobby artist and ask them for my work back. And maybe we can just switch out some pieces. I didn't know the protocol. So I didn't say anything. And I was kind of like hoping that I get the work back somehow. And then it manifested that like we stopped working together and I got the work back, which was amazing. And I got to destroy it. I reworked some of the stuff and then it destroyed it. But fast forward to like 2020, a friend of mine has an opening at the New York gallery of the same name. They switched. They moved from Santa Fe to Manhattan, Harlem.
And a friend of mine was, had happened to get his studio was like a block or two away from where this gallery is. So he met the gallery owners and the gallery owners liked his work. And fast forward you got to show. So I went to the gallery, hadn't seen the galleries, the guys since, since 2015, although we remained in contact with social media and Instagram and emails, but we just weren't working together. And I went and I saw the guys show my friend Isaac show and I see the gallery owner and we start talking, we just hit it off. And he asked me if I'm working with anyone, it's a moment I happen not to be. I might have worked with different people on and off throughout my career. And a week later he was in my studio and a couple of weeks later I had a show just amazing.
And that pretty much brings us to the present and I'm still represented by them. So how it all happened? I don't know. I want to say that there's some, some creative force that just kind of makes things manifest, but you know, I, I, I did the work on my part. I made the work and then I try to get it into the world and you know, and even during a pandemic, the show was a great success. I was very happy with it. Great. But now it's kind of a long story, but sorry I was rambling, but that's how it happens. Yeah. It's very detailed.
I have a couple of questions. Fine. So, so is the available on the gallery website now?
Yeah, the work that is, well, some of it's sold, but the work that's still there is a available it's David Richard gallery.com. And my name is Gabriel J Shuldiner. And that's how you can find it.
You mentioned your artist, friend, Isaac what's his,
His name is Isaac has made. His name is Isaac. Aiden is a conceptual artist that he also does stuff with color fields. We did these amazing paintings that were involved, automotive paint and like the shifting of light. They're very subtle, beautiful, like pastel like colors. He's also on the website of David, Richard gallery, if anyone was interested. Cool.
Very cool. And then what might take from what you just said? I have a couple of questions. So my take is first and foremost, you as a human being, as an individual, put yourself out there and put yourself at this loft for me to find you for this art dealer to find you, so artists out there who are listening, like what actionable steps will Gabriel put himself in a space where other artists were in a community where other artists were in position himself to be seen. So that's vulnerable as an artists, especially if you're introverted. And we hide like I, my birthday is 1111 and my, on the there's a book of birthdays and my no joke.
It's the veil. It's, it's the, it's the veil. So, oh yeah. I've heard, I I've been hiding. I'm just coming out of hiding right now. Like I, and I woke up one day and I was like, yo, I'm like, I've been hiding under a rock for like three years. You're on top of it all. And then you wake up and you're like, oh my God, like, where did the fear, when did it bite me? And then all of a sudden three years go by and you're like, oh, I need to come up from underneath this rock.
Right. But you need it. You needed those three years though. Don't you think?
Yeah, because when we know the deepest of the dark lake cologne, LeBron says, when we know the deepest of the sorrow, then we can explore and feel the greatest of the joys and know the brightest of the sons and appreciate the highest of the highs because we know the depths of the lows, right? Yeah.
Yeah. But that's, sometimes it's hard to, you know, when you're in it, you know, it's, it's hard to realize that it's all part of the process, but the actionable step. Yeah. The actionable steps you mentioned, like I'm always applying for things. And I suggest artists do that. Apply for studio spaces, apply for grants, apply for different opportunities. And you never know who's looking at the work. If it's something that's curated and if you don't get it in the first time, you know, try it again. I applied to graduate school to get a graduate degree in dancing and fine arts. And the first year I applied, I applied to like seven schools. I didn't get in anywhere, but I reapplied the next and I got in.
So just apply. And by applying eventually things happen and then you get opportunities and those opportunities lead to other opportunities, even if, even if you don't know how it's going to happen, if that makes any sense. Of course, that's kind of how it happens. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead.
So take us on the journey of your educational system.
Well, I went to, I was not very School inclined as a kid, even though, I mean, I loved art class when I was like 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 years old, but really didn't like school. I read so many of the books that I was supposed to read in high school. Like after high school, I was just not, I couldn't focus. I couldn't, I couldn't get into it. And I'm so weird. Cause I love learning now. Like as soon as I finished school, I was like really interested in like learning, but like not when I was in it. So I went to NYU for undergrad and I studied Eastern philosophy and music business and you know, it was really cool. And I got into the record industry on the business side of it during school and then afterwards, and I was basically working around other artists, not visual artists, you know, musicians.
And it was, it was really fun for awhile. But after awhile, I, I felt the time. I didn't know it because I had like a, a t-shirt company for a little bit. And I was like, starting a record company. I was always doing like a million different, like small creative ideas ventures, even if I was still basically doing like marketing for a record company. And so I had all these little like creative outlets, but nothing ever really took off. I wasn't really sure. Like, you know, I was apprehensive about, I really do like my own record company, like t-shirt company. And like, you know, it was called pathetic is a t-shirt company. And it has like a little skate brand, but it was like super small.
And like, I never really pursued it, but I was always doing like a million different creative things just because I was interested in it. The one thing I wasn't doing, which is ironic was painting. And so I kind of was in this mode where I got real, like you were talking about those three years where you just were kind of like, you know, in your cell or something. Like I started feeling very like stifled and I realized it was creativity create creatively stifled at the time. I, I, I didn't realize it or realize after the fact. And I got, I had a, a collection of like old street signs. I would steal street signs from the street, like stop signs and stuff. And I put them up in my place and I just started taking them down and like, it was spray paint and like, you know, making like little marks on it and just kind of like a really good vibe from it.
Even though I didn't think of myself as painting at the time, I was just kind of going around with like spray paint, but it was, I got this feeling that was like Magic. And so I chased that feeling and I kind of kept doing this a little bit and it became more and more. And so it was like after work while I was like going to my, my day job at record company, I was buying, I started buying canvas. I started like picking up more street signs or like pieces of wood on the street and just like making these like weird creations. I originally started painting only in white, which is kind of interesting. And then like I quickly switched to black, but I was really interested in like the details of it, you know, like too many options if you, if you have a whole pallet of color, but if you limit it to just one, whether it's white or black, then you can really get like stuck on like the subtlety and the details and, you know, the repetition within something similar over and over and over again and get like different results.
So I kept kind of just pursuing this and next thing I know, I'm like, I think I'm making art. Like this is incredible. And I got up the courage to show a couple of friends and they were very encouraging and it just kinda kind of exploded from there. And then I realized, you know, what, like Life is too short to not do what you love. And at that moment I had discovered what I love and that was like making art. So I just wonderfully quit my job. And, and I, I mean, it was a little bit more intense than that. I went through a period of being really depressed because it wasn't happy at my job. And the one thing that also helped me get through that depression was the act of creating, which I found to be literally lifesaving.
So there's like a real deep component of just like how it changed my life on a personal level. And then I said, you know, it feels so good making this work. I'm going to keep doing it. And I'm going to devote myself to this craft and pursued the art worlds, I guess, is what I, I didn't know how to do it really, but I did. And then I kept up, like I was saying, I eventually started applying things and I got in, I got into the SVA dumber residency program. And then that led to
Like, what's SVA for people who
SBA is a great art school. It's school of visual arts in Manhattan. And so I didn't go into the graduate program. I went to their summer program, which was like a studio for like a couple of months in the summer. And it's very similar. You get a lot of like creative people working next to you. It was one of the greatest things I ever did, did that for like a couple months. And then the next year I applied to Parsons for graduate school for painting, which is also in Manhattan Parsons school of design. And I didn't get in the first year. So I reapplied and I got in second year and it's just kind of like one thing builds upon the other. And I guess, you know, I guess the actionable concept actual step is you just keep applying and you keep putting yourself out there and eventually things happen
When you were applying. Were you also applying for scholarships or did you pay for it to someone pay for it? Cause what about the people who have the money they can pay for it or do they get scholarships that they can't pay or,
Yeah, it's a big issue. It's a big problem. I took a lot of student loan debt on in order to do it. It was the best decision I made, but, you know, and I did get partial scholarship, but majority of it was like, you know, I just took out student loans and now I'm like one of like a million people that have student loans needs to be paid back, which it's a lot of money, but I don't regret it.
My saying is this from my experiences, growing up as a human being and as an artist and being around multibillionaires and multi-millionaires and who have all this money. And then I try to raise capital for like so many different things and it's difficult and, you know, to raise capital and to get money. And, and, and then I found out like, this is what the conclusion I came up with is this okay? It's very, very straightforward. If you're not willing to invest in yourself, why would another person want to invest in
You? It's a great concept. That's a great point.
And the other thing is when you invest in yourself and you're scared to, like, it's not a regrettable thing because it's your life. So when you, the best investment one could ever make is in themselves. And absolutely. Yeah, so like, like totally investing and assistance and education and online tools and mentorships and coaching and just taking, taking funds, you know, and investing it into yourself because you know, so many times like I would buy so many things for other people and people go and they, they buy things for other people. They just spend money, but then they won't spend it on themselves, but you know, and then people do this zero to hero program.
But like, and I know it's very minute and you want to just have the illusion and obtain it like instantaneously, like, you know, eating ice cream, I'm going to eat it. Boom, it's done short-term gratification. But it's like, if you literally like take a dollar a day and you like, literally put it away, even if it's a dollar a day, that's still going to accumulate to something better than nothing. And then, and then the more you do it, I made it this interpersonal challenge with myself. And then it's like, you know, to grow and grow and grow. And then it's the perfect example is called the richest man in Babylon. So if, if have you read that
Book, I want to read it.
It's called the richest man in Babylon and anyone who wants to grow more gold, worse value on a monetization level. It's and you talked about manifestation. This is how it's going to happen by the richest man in Babylon. And it shows you because the example is if someone gives me a golden nugget, which people have given me so many gold nuggets, but I'm so excited and it's so shiny and oh my God, it's a golden nugget. And I want to share it with my mom or my dad or my sister and my friend. And I'm like, here you go in my heart because a lot of artists were heart-centered where like, I have this amazing golden nugget, hold it, try it out. Here you go. And you, and then you give it away. You give it away, you give it away.
But if you, if you receive a gold nugget and you put it to the right, and then you receive another golden nugget and you put to the right, you know, eventually a month, two months, a year later, you know, look to the right. You're like, oh my God, I have a, this gold nugget turned into a gold mountain. And then when you throw mountain going on and you receive some gold nuggets, then you can decide to here, let me share it with my mom or my dad or someone else. But first you need to build up that stuff from within and show the universe that you're responsible to take on more things. It's kind of like energetic tests in the universe. You know,
That's a great way to look at things like that's very cool. I'm going to definitely read that book.
You've been listening to an audio. That's what I did. If you, because I read a lot of scripts for acting and stuff and reading so much and doing so much, and you can absorb like, after a hot bath or shower or while you're painting, or while you're doing something, you can even like have headphones in and listen to it while you're sleeping. So it goes into your subconscious. Yeah. But like, you can listen to it on audio and there's a program it's called overdrive. It's an app it's through the library and you can download up to 30 audio books per month for free. Wow.
That's really cool. Thank you for that. I'm going to take you up on that.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So I have another question going back to the technical aspect that you mentioned. So you put yourself in a situation to, so this art dealer could find you and then you got to deal with the gallery. How does that look? Like? Do you sign a contract? Do they provide you with the contract? Like how does that, how does it look? How do you, because it's so confusing. Like if someone wants to represent you, and so there's the below the line, the, the solid cause like you said, art is art and the music industry, especially there's different deals, but, but I know about law and I know about things as independent artists, but now that I know, but for the people who don't know, like what about your art deal?
Like, how did that look when you're like, yeah, I'm going to represent you. Like, did, did she hit pocket you? Or what was the, what was the call to action for her? Like, was she, how did it happen? Did she tell you exactly how it was going to be or what
Yes she did, which was good. And, you know, I was, I was not going to take a deal that was just kind of deals are, you know, on good faith and handshakes in the art world, which is kind of weird. It's like that. And it it's, it's, it's strange. I can't really explain it, but in this particular situation, extreme is really cool. She told me like, you know, basically what would happen, like, you know, as typical gallery artists split is 50 50 sounds crazy. 50% of a painting goes to the gallery. But if it's a gallery that believes in your work, you know, they're doing a lot of work for you and you're doing, they're doing a lot of promotion. They have their whole like, you know, mailing list and the collectors that they normally work with.
So in a way, the idea is that through the gallery, your work will get seen by collectors and people that wouldn't necessarily see your work without the gallery. And so with the gallery, you get exposure to like collectors and art, art world people. And that's kind of how sales manifests on this. You know, I mean, it's a lot of artists. I mean, it depends like artists sell to other people directly out of their studio too. Sometimes basically my deal was through her and she had a deal with the gallery, which tactically, I don't even know what that deal was, but most likely, like I would get 50% on a painting and then they would get like maybe a 50% of 50%.
So 25 Each based on the work that sold. And that's how she got paid through the gallery. And that's how the gallery got paid. But it's also possible that the gallery basically kept her as a, what's the word I'm looking for as a, like a broker, the word escapes me right now. I got like a consultant. So she could have been being paid by as a consultant, like a regular fee that, that nothing to do with my own art sales. It was just like her working directly with the gallery, in which case maybe the gallery would get 50% of the other 50% of the retail price of the paint thing and just get paid on her monthly rate. So I don't really know what her particular deal was with the gallery, but my deal was through her and through her, through the gallery and everything was on paper.
So that when I sold the piece, you know, it was basically, you know, contractually written out like what paintings sold and that I'm getting 50% and it worked out. I mean, I know a lot of horror stories where like, you know, artists get deals with galleries, galleries sell their work. They never see the money. It's, it's the equivalent of like what goes on in the law and the record industry, which is, you know, a lot of times the artists are the main artists is what makes the industry. But at the same time, like how much did they get paid for? Like, you know, Spotify, it's like, they're always kind of like rip off the artists and
A lot of ways.
Yeah. Yeah. It's ridiculous. So that stuff kind of happens in the art world too.
The, one of the things I really admire about you because of your sophistication in your education of going to school. So you're already, it already shows like you're, you're intelligent. So that doesn't mean like all artists have that education, which doesn't, which doesn't mean that they're a lesser of an artist because there's so many sounds that artists who don't have the education and with Google now, you know, you can like literally say like, what are some ideas? What are some templates of an art dealer? Well, what is it? What, what is an art deal look like? So thank God for Google. But like, for people even to know, to like, know, to go to Google, to say, Hey, just type that into Google, but to tell all artists on here, listening, like, like make sure whatever you do as an artist and whatever you do as a creative, make sure they can literally be in an email.
It suffices in the court of law. If you even just have, even if it's not like a formal written contract, like it can just be like a, literally a one page or a one paragraph, like, you know, attention in the detail. There's like people who can look it over for you before you sign it, dose assault, sign it right away. Have someone like, look, if you don't know someone, like, I mean, there's Reddit, there's like Google, but also like, it's really, really important to like, even if it's on an email, like, even if it's on an email that that goes, that can go to an attorney and in a court of law. So that's why it's better. It's very true. And it's better, like, instead of being on the phone when you're making deals, or like you said, there's a lot of handshaking going on and that's, that's like, you know, it's like a, it's, it's great to have that handshake and that trust and stuff.
But also it's like, it's it's business, it's a business. It's, it's called it's called show business for a reason, you show your art and it's a business. So yeah. Like just have, have something very simple. It doesn't have to be a big deal just saying like, oh, you're going to it's it's like 30, 20 or 50 50, or like, whatever, 60, 40, whatever it's going to be. And the term of the contract is one year. And if nothing, you know, like in, for acting, if an agent doesn't get you something in the first 90 days, it can be null and void. If they don't get you any work, like you can dip out of the union contract. Was your contract for one year or how long, the long, how long was your contract for
Go? Well, what I've been doing just general, it's been like six months and then we keep extending it. So that's kinda how it's been working on my end, but there are infinite ways that you can do it. But basically the work is technically like legally it's on consignment to them. And so they have like six months to a year to like, keep it on consignment and hopefully sell what's what's left of it. And that's kinda how it works once. So that's basically like my, to deal with, with a particular gallery. It's like everything is on consignment, which basically means they, I mean, we're regardless of where the piece is physically. Cause, you know, cause I have the work in my S my storage space, even though it's still consigned to the gallery in
I'm here, a tear or some there's steps or something. I was going to say like, if the pieces are in their gallery, do you have in your contract? Like God forbid something. I mean, if their building has insurance, obviously it's paid through the insurance, but what happens if one of your pieces are missing? Are they insured? Like how does that work out? Who's responsible for those things
That, that tactic, that's where it gets kind of tricky, you know? Like, hopefully like in good faith, the gallery would be like, you know, wow, we lost your painting. We apologize. But I've heard so many stories where, you know, paintings go missing, which really means a lot of ways that a gallery has sold it, but hasn't paid the artists. So they'll, they'll say that it's, you know, and this is just the flip side of like, you know, the art world. There's a lot of shady newness that goes on. So you just have to be like, like, you have to be like aware and upfront. And like, you know, even if it's a verbal or a handshake, like you said, put it in the email, but general, like the gallery is responsible for the work, if it's on consignment to them.
So if something were to happen to the work, the liable for it,
Lastly, I'll talk, I'll say on this subject is another thing that just came to my mind is, you know, before getting into the business with these people, thank God for social media and Google, you can type in the name of the person, the art dealer, the gallery, and put scam afterwards and see if they're staffed and so that you can see their reputation. So do some research to find out, you know, maybe they're on LinkedIn or if they have a big following on social media, or if they don't have the big following, like get a resource or two, a couple of resources, you can say, Hey, who else do you represent? You can look at their, their artist's page. And like, look at, you can even say like, let, let's see your like monthly two month, three month report, let's see the sales you've done. You know what I mean? Like you're working for you ultimately, and you're going to like go with them.
And it's cool that it's yours is like a six month deal, because then you're like, kind of like, quote unquote, getting into bed. But if your personalities clash, or if you don't like your work ethic or something, you're not married to them and you can actually like, just like keep on moving.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then, and then it gets tricky with like, you know, multiple opportunities because like one thing that I guess, like, I mean, as much as I've, I feel like I've given really good advice. It's like, I just need to take my advice because I get so frustrated sometimes where I feel like I have nothing coming up in terms of like a show or like a, a commission or something. And then if I don't have something like lined up, it's basically just me and my studio making work on the good faith that something is gonna happen. Something else, something an opportunity is going to manifest. It's a lot of times what happens is like, you know, I'll be represented by a particular gallery, but there'll be another gallery that kind of want to work with me as well. And so it becomes this like, you know, just be upfront with your gallery.
Like if I had a gallery from California, that's interested in working with me, I don't at the moment. But if I did, like, just because I have a gallery in Manhattan doesn't necessarily mean I can't work for the gallery in California as well, and in sign different work to them, but it's still nice to like mention it to your other gallery that this opportunity has come up because sometimes the gallery can help you and maybe, you know, paying for shipping or, you know, can work directly with the other gallery in some capacity. If you kind of like hid the idea or the opportunity, then, you know, you might get into like a weird rift with your gallery. So it was good to be upfront because opportunities come up and like, you know, you'll see artists that are working with like three or four different galleries.
And maybe the deal for one gallery is like ongoing. And the deal for another gallery is just a show. And, you know, it's just like, we're like opportunities come up. And like, I think it's important to like take every opportunity because you never know who's going to see your work. You never know what's going to happen with that piece, you know? And it's just always about getting more and more and more exposure. So it's important to like when, when opportunities manifest to take them, but it's also important to be upfront. At least this is my opinion to be upfront with like who you're working with in New York, because maybe they know something about the gallery in California and there they have a bad reputation, or maybe it's like conflict of interest because they want pain things that are too similar to the ones that they have in New York, you know, but as everything is negotiable and I think that's a little bit different than use it while you get like a contract with a particular record company.
And then you're pretty much like, you know, solely exclusive with them. But then, you know, there, there are deals that are like that too, where it's like, you know, you're working with this particular gallery and you're represented for like the world through them. And you will not take other opportunities that come up because you're exclusive. And that's another type of artist deal that like you can get. And usually, you know, if you get like a really powerful gallery, like they're gonna want to they're to want to own you in a lot of ways. And it's, it's kinda tough because you take that risk to like, be with them and hope that they're going to work on your behalf, but you're also like, you know, not necessarily taking other opportunities to come up because you're not allowed to. So it really depends.
There are infinite number of ways you can have a gallery represents you or, you know, the most important thing. And best advice I've ever gotten is just keep making the work, just keep making work over and over and over again and tell everybody that you're an artist and you never know what comes from that.
Yeah. And also, you know, putting it out there, putting it out there, we can't like, there's the good faith in everything. And then it's also like, you know, we need to know how to scale and monetize for ourselves. Cause like we're, we're extending ourselves. So before you mentioned you had the, the t-shirt brand. So do, did you apply your paintings, sir? For on some merged, like coffee mugs and t-shirts and stuff. So you have some merchants could be making some passive income.
Well, I also do wearable work, smaller works that are much more inexpensive and they're basically like tiny sculptures that are wearable. And I, when I got out of Parsons, I was actually making jewelry parallel to like making art. So I was doing both and I was driving myself crazy because I was working with like little, like, really cool, like, you know, mom and pop retail outlets in, in Manhattan and in California, specifically for my jewelry. And then I was working on my paintings and, you know, trying to get leg representation for that. So I was basically like all over the place and I did a couple like New York fashion week where like different designers would use my stuff. So I've been able, I still, I still kind of do make the wearable work.
I don't, I consider it art though. I don't, I don't try to pursue like the, the fashion world or like, you know, opportunities to sell jewelry. I really just make small pieces that are wearable and I make them available directly from my website. And it's, it's another way to, I guess, you know, it extends my brand. If you want to say like, you know, cause then somebody is wearing a necklace. It's a, basically my art on a necklace and new museum here in New York, they sell some of the necklaces that I have. So I've been able to do that, but like I haven't done. T-shirts like, I do have a logo for my, my brand, which is like a backwards G and I've got stickers and like put, stickers up all over the city.
And sometimes I incorporate that G it into my work, but I haven't gone ahead and made.
Yeah. You've seen the sophisticated psycho stickers all over New York city.
I actually have. Is you have someone doing it for you or is that you?
Yeah. Come on, come on, come on, come on, come on. Yo, yo TSP. That's what's up LA Paris, Australia. We're all over the place.
Awesome. That's really cool. So I kind of do the same thing. Yeah.
I just shipped like 5,000 to like Australia Paris. You just, you just ship them there and having friends help out, you know what I'm saying? The homeys help out. They know what's up.
I know exactly what you're saying.
So what I'm thinking is, what about Etsy having your like Poshmark or like at sea having your, your art pieces on there to sell?
Well, here's the thing and this just gets kind of like a, it depends on who you speak to. A lot of people, like if you're an artist, like a lot of people will disagree with this, but like I was told that when I was doing the jewelry as a side, you know, it was almost like 50, 50. I was doing jewelry and I was doing the art, the painting, the studio work and an art dealer that I was working with had mentioned that choose one, like if you're an artists like focus on the painting because a lot of times like certain collectors, this, this gets really like trite, but like certain collectors, if they know that you're also doing like jewelry, they'll look at you differently than if you're just solely doing painting, which I think is ridiculous. But I see that, like, I see how it can be like, are you, are you a painter?
Are you devoted to like, you know, the studio work or are you a jewelry designer? And at that point, like I made a decision to just, you know, I mean, I'm an artist, I'm a painter.
That
Was, while I say that would probably like 20, I got out of grad school, 2009. So that was probably like 2010.
Okay. Let me help you right now. We're in the 21st century. So that was, that was, that was over a decade ago. So much has changed now. And like that's a stigma and that someone, so you're in a whole new entrepreneurial world now. So the more you're out there on different plethora of platforms, the more, the more it's going to be better for you and other artists listening on here, that someone that was some it's, it's an a that's someone and they're, they're a little belief system that was planted in your brain, but you need to squash that and eliminate it and let it go and get your stuff on it. See, because a lot of people are buying on Etsy.
And so that leads me to your then you're definitely not on Pinterest then, right?
No. I mean, people have posted my work on Pinterest repins, but I'm all over.
Let me give you some more hacks here. Okay. Pinterest, you need to be all up on Pinterest. Pinterest and YouTube are the only ones that do SEO search engine optimization. And I know all about strategy for keywords and those kinds of things. See everything else is a social feed it's on. You might see it. You might never see it. It might be on your, on someone's page. It might fly by their face, or they may never see it. Or they may see it five days later, but it's a feed it's like Twitter. It comes and goes, Facebook. It comes and goes, Instagram. It comes and goes, but the Google and the Pinterest, the SEO, they live there forever. And you can be found internationally, your, your art, your niche, you are, and you have a niche and you need your niche on YouTube and on Pinterest, because then this 101 year old painter from fonts that you really admire and respect, like that's how other people are gonna see your work.
And you're going to have more exposure. So, I mean, I don't know if it's advice, but I'm just saying like, as entrepreneur artists, because you're you and who's, where's that person now. W what are they doing? They're not, they're not, they're not putting money in your bank account. Right, right. We're not getting any younger here and you're educated and you have student loans, you want to pay off. And it's like, we want to make passive income. And it's like, we're not 15 and 20. Yeah. We're doing it on. And it's awesome. And it's a part of our heart and soul in our journey. And we're true artists, but you know what I mean? Like, I, God willing, I would like to like, have a family and I would like to feed my babies. And you know what I mean? I would like to have a nice passive income and have the accolade for my energy and my time and my work.
So, yeah, it's really, really important. And you don't, you can do it or you can outsource and have someone do it it's a lot. So, you know, a lot of, I was just on a panel with all these multi-millionaires the other day or 11 hours. I was on from 11:00 PM to nine 30 in the morning. And yeah. And the thing is, it's like, you just have to bus through all those things and just get your mind to rate and go after it and do what you gotta do for you. And, you know, with ethics, morals, and values, and do what you gotta do for you and just, you know, call it a day, just, just make it happen. Oh, and the last thing they were saying was like, you know, all these people, what you need to do, even though you know how to do it, like there's things I know how to do.
I outsource. I have, you know, I have three VAs virtual assistants that, that do things for me. Like, you, you need to pay these virtual assistants, because like we said earlier, the best investment you're going to make is in yourself. And so when you invest in yourself, then you know, but you have to offload things. So like certain things you gotta to do, like the core things, but then, you know, the admin stuff and certain things, for example, like, like you put together, you don't know the keyword, you don't know how to get your, your website, you know, with the 300 words on each landing page, up with the key words, you know, you have a branding expert, blah, blah, blah, like putting together your electronic press kit. Maybe you know how to do all those things.
Maybe you need a helping hand to help you do those things. Maybe you say, Hey, I need this, this, and I just worked with the strategy coach and I need one through 10. Okay. This is what needs to be done. And someone else does it. Cause I don't like to do those things. You know what I mean? It's typical as an artist to do those things. Cause I want to be in the art. I want to do the fun stuff. Then I'll let it chase the magic stuff. But it means all these other things that need to be done, but it's an energy. So you have to pay some kind of fee for those PE as an exchange for those people, for you, you could probably get an intern, you could probably get some kind of intern or something and they would, who knows admin work and they could, they could do it as an exchange. And then you give them information because you're highly educated and you went to these schools, you know? So you could definitely get, get a couple interns working with you.
Do you guys use a Pinterest like yourselves? That's our next strategy? Not yet. We're we're focusing on what we're focusing on now. I got certified in YouTube business during cool at the beginning of the pandemic. Oh yeah. I mean I had to because there's so much monetization on Instagram and YouTube. So I had to energetically pivot and I found out about like the YouTube business stuff. And so I'm starting to rock and roll on the sophisticated psychos, YouTube page, subscribe there. And it's all about consistency and I can share strategies and stuff with you on that, on that vibe. But you know, it's like this guy was talking, it's like he did a video and it had no views, no views.
And then boom, seven months later he had over 40,000 views. How is that even possible? Because the thing is it's AI, it's the algorithm. And so what you post, how you post, when you post the hashtags, you use the title in the description, it's AI and it's layered. So it's like within the first, second, third within the first. And then when you do YouTube, you need to do the format bumper hook and then the content. So you have to do a bumper, a hook and the content and YouTube is not about your subscribers. It's not about the likes. It's about the watch time you get paid on the watch time. You could have like a million subscribers, but like if they say, oh, only like 500 hours were watched, like on one of my channels I have at the minimum 14,000 hours per month watched, right.
That's just on one of my YouTube channels, but I'm, I'm focused now and I've rebranded. So I'm very focused with my two brands going forward, but that accumulates, but the thing is, if you have 1 million subscribers and you only have 500 hours of watch time, you tell the algorithm, you, you tell YouTube, oh, this person has all this content, but all these subscribers, but no, they're only getting this much. Watch time. Their content must not be good. We're not going to share it. But if you have like minimal subscribers, like a hundred or 200, but you have like maximum watch time. They're like, oh, this content must be really good. People are liking this. We're going to share this more. And it's a ripple effect and them, the algorithm shares it more.
That's incredible. Oh, there's so many hats. I mean, I mean there's a whole nother podcast episode. Yeah,
I understand. But like it's a great way. Like you can, you can. I mean, there's, there's gotta be a way that I could do something more with YouTube. Pinterest. I get, you know, I can understand that YouTube. I never thought about it. Like I have a couple of interviews that I did with the gallery that they posted on YouTube, but like having my own channel, I never even considered it.
Oh, it's a great idea. Yo, you can repurpose your content. I, we, I have a production team. I have a graphic artist. They can put an edge on it. They can put a cool on it. They can put your font on it. They can size it for you. They can do the formatting for you because you have to do thumbnails. Like you have to be consistent. You have to do the hashtags. You can repurpose your content. You can record like a VO narration and some montage of videos and photos and repurpose the content and just like posts like one video a week and you schedule them. So like, you know, you have six months of content ready to go. And your specific niche is so specific because of you being an artist and what kind of artist you are, you're going to accumulate those kinds of subscribers.
And the other thing you said earlier, which was, you know, which is great. And you're like, oh yeah, you know, you're putting it out there and then having good faith. Well, there's more than good faith. It's like you said earlier, too, it's about creating and when you're, and then when you know, and just keep creating and creating and keep outsourcing, but creating and creating by doing the YouTube, creating by doing the Pinterest, competing by scheduling all your posts like, you know, and having it be consistent because me as an artist, I can't, if I'm emotionally going to go post something like four out of five times, it doesn't get done. I might want to say, oh, I'm excited. I'm going to post something on Sunday. But then, then it's like Friday. And it's like, oh, Friday's not a good day to post because everyone's like, it's Friday and they're doing their thing.
So then I missed the boat. So like I just started scheduling my own stuff to like 60 days in advance. Because if you post once every two days, or once every three days it's consistent, but your, your posts are scheduled. If you're doing, if you're doing, if you're scheduled two months out and you're doing a post every two days, you only need 30 images or 30, you know, videos or whatever for two months, you know, and then you write everything down, you do all your hashtags and then it's still from the heart and then you batch it and then you have this
Incredible, this is about YouTube, right?
No. Now I'm talking about when you're scheduling your posts on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook. I'm not sure if Pinterest, I think Pinterest, you can schedule as well. Yeah. You can schedule all your posts, but you, you gotta get your hashtags popping so people can find you on the Google,
Right? Yeah. That's really, I mean, this is, this is exactly what I didn't want to talk to you about. So it's amazing that you're, you're, you're mentioning all this stuff.
Oh yeah. And the listeners on here, they know how to reach me. chonacas.com and you know, there's a link and we can do one-on-one private coaching. I have, you know, weekly coaches I work with. And then also, you know, it could just be a, one-off like, boom, I need this coaching session with you. And then they go and do everything. And then they come back to me two weeks later and it's bi-weekly or they come to me once a month. They're like, okay, I did the list of 10 things now. I, okay. I did the list of 10 things. Now what you know? And then if you have someone outsourcing and doing it for you, you can move a lot faster. Now, all these things need to be in a place and they're called funnels. You need a, His like a business tech thing, but there's funnels. You need to, you need to get your funnels. And the number one most valuable thing, I'll tell you and all the artists on here, like the number one thing you need to do is, and this has been, this has been going on since the eighties, probably before the eighties.
But the number one thing you need to do is have people's email addresses and collect people's email addresses because all these social media platforms could actually just be gone tomorrow. And so if you have people's emails, if you have an online business pop in, or you're like, oh my God, I haven't started yet, but I want to get it started popping. There's like cold calls. There's people who are raising their hands. And those are your warm audiences. I have a Facebook page, Katie Chonacas. And since I'm branding and building this up now I have probably like over 600 people on it. There's one, it has over 600 people and I can't get into that account for some reason. So I, I had to start a new one.
So I have over 600 people. So I have 600 people just from that Facebook fan page where people raise their hand and you know, they're on my email list. And so I can send them stuff. And they're a part of my community. And so you want to like, have people opt in to, to sign up for your email list because you're going to email them something special. You're going to email them a weekly update. You're going to email them something. You're going to give them something like it's called a freemium. You're going to add value. You're going to give them something. And then they give you their email and they want to partake in what you're doing. And then like when you're like re have a show, or if you're selling something like your merge or, Hey, I just put my stuff up on Etsy at sea and you send it out to 100 people, 600 people, 2000 people, whatever.
And then those are the people who are going to support you as an artist and buy your stuff and share it with their friends and family. That's super cool.
So basically everyone you have on your Facebook page, you have all of their email addresses.
No, not all of them, but what I can do is since they follow me, I can write something and say, Hey, this which I'm going to like, actually, you just reminded me. I need to write down there, say, Hey, I'm sign up for my creative newsletter. And then let's see how many people do it. And then you do it once a week. So, so the people that didn't see it will see it. Right? And so, because I have the book, I'm going to be releasing a lover's Fairytale. And then so then people can go to a lover's Fairytale so people can know about my book so people can know about like what I'm doing, but I'm what I'm doing is I'm growing my email and what you can do on Facebook, which is a really good thing to do. You need an evergreen ad and an evergreen ad means you take like a gift or a video, something dope, and I can help.
My graphics guy can help you design something minimal font. What you should do is listen to Facebook strategy and Instagram strategy with Monica, Louie on my podcast. And that's going to help, you know, a lot of information. And then you can come to me with more questions, but first do that. And then once you do that, you're going to know you're going to do a gift, or you're going to do an evergreen ad where you can spend a dollar a day and you have a pixel in your, in your Facebook and on your landing page of all your websites and you have a pixel. And what happens is it co it breeds more people who like your art and who are in your topic. And then what you do is instead of when you do an evergreen ad, that could be a dollar a day, but it's evergreen.
So it can go run for five years or one year or three months, whatever. And people are opting in to put in their email to know more about your art and to know more about you. You don't want it to click off the page for them to go onto something else. You want them to be able to put in their email right on Facebook. Cause if you have them click off of Facebook, it's going to say, do you really want to click off of Facebook? Yes or no. You're going to lose 50% of the people. So you want, when you do an evergreen ad, you want to make sure you put your, they can put their email in without leaving Facebook because, or else they're going to, they're not going to want to scroll off. They're gonna want to keep going.
It's incredible advice. Wow. I'm going to come back to you with a bunch of questions and then I'll watch that. Listen to that podcast and come back at you. It's like, this is like super healthy.
Oh yeah. It's a lie. It's a lot to take in, but it's, it's it's if you want, once you have direction and the tools and you know what to do, you can do it. Someone like me, I haven't been diagnosed ever. I've gone to neurologist, I've gone to therapist. I've gone to a psychologist. I've gone to people who tried to put me on medication. And it's like, it's not my jam. I'm God's gift to the world. My my mind is a mastermind. I am who I am. We're like I said earlier, we're human beings, not human, like robots. So like, for me, I know certain things, but to help with the structure of the in-between, you know what I mean? Like, I need a helping hand, like a VA or someone to do those kinds of things out that I have the projected vision of things, but I need that help with the integral part of it.
And some people are, they can do those things and that's their jam for me. I'm an empath. I'm highly sensitive. I start shaking. I get anxiety. I get overwhelmed and I shut down. So yeah. I'm like, I'm a, I'm an introvert, like U2, I'm an introvert and an extrovert. I'm an ambivert.
No one thinks I'm like, when I meet people, I talk to people like no one believes me. When I tell them I'm a huge introvert. They're like, dude, you're so like, you know, you're outgoing, very personable. And that's the natural side of me. But believe me, I'm like 99.9% introvert easily. So I don't know what that is.
Right. I know what it is. I know exactly it is. And I, I, when you told me that originally, I'm like, yeah, I see, I totally get that. And that's awesome that you know it and you're vulnerable and you say it because a lot of people are scared and they don't say it and they shy and they hide away. And that's when you know, bad things happen where people hide and do bad things. But since you're comfortable with that, you know, my music partner, Niki Scorpio, he has a podcast it's called the Scorpio rising podcast. It hit top three on apple podcasts, our top 100 on his, on apple podcasts for mental health on his third freaking episode, he's balling and his tagline on it. It says the podcast for introverts.
Yeah.
Yeah. So, you know, He I've known him for eight years. And so we're a yin and yang, but the very, the thing is being an Amber river. It's like, I love being invited. Like I love going to fashion shows, of course. And I love being invited to, and I love going to events and parties and red carpet events and blah-blah-blah and growing up and doing all that. And then through the years, it's like, sometimes it's like, you just want to be invited even though you just rather stay home. You just want to know that you're invited, you know what I mean?
So true. I totally got deal with that.
Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you, you like an insecure par or just that yearning, like, I just want to be invited, but, but when you're invited, you're like, that's nice, but I'm just gonna stay home.
Yeah. Even like going to art openings, like, you know, including my own, like, like I never want to go, but when I do go, I always run into people. I know I always have a great time and it's, it's always an amazing experience and I'm always confused why I was so against going. Like, I just really wanted to just stay home with my little puppy. I don't want to go this opening, even mine, I didn't want to go into, but it was amazing. And I went and then I'm like, why did I not want to go? And then I'm like, next time, just remember you have a good time. And then the next opening comes up. And again, I don't want to go. It's really crazy. So I've accepted that. I'm always not going to want to go to anything, but I make myself do it. And I always have a good time.
It's the weirdest thing.
I just did a podcast episode on it, the turn of the century on being alone in fear of intimacy. And it's a psychological thing. And I feel the same thing. Like, so I'm really good at connecting people, curating, coordinating. I have a new radio show it's called the sophisticated psychos, our radio hour. It's a bi-weekly show and I just curated it. And it's going to air for the first time next week. And I curated the whole we'll have you on if you want. And of course it'll be fun. And then I, I curated the whole thing in it on a very minimal level, very scattered throughout the thing. My name's mentioned, my podcast is mentioned, my, my music is played on it, but like, but you won't hear my actual voice on it a lot.
It'll be other people's voices. But I curated the whole thing. I hired all the talent. I directed the whole flow of it. The less I can like not show up and just like, be like not there is like the better for me. And so in the past, when I've like, when I was in LA and I was putting on these like massive events and stuff, but I would have like so much cortisol would release and I would have such so much anxiety. And like, I would literally just like, be like freaking out inside because of like, I don't know, like, I don't want to say, I don't know what it is, but yeah. And you want it to happen and then it does happen. But there's something about it too, where it's like, it's like super stressful.
You know,
I totally identify with that. That's
Why I really love doing voiceovers and I love doing the podcast and that's why I love, you know, painting. And that's why I love poetry. And now releasing the poetry book, because those are things you can do with yourself and your soul internally. And yeah. So
I love painting so much. Where can I actually see your painting? Do you have a website for it or
No, I actually, I don't have, yeah, it's a very, very good question. Oh my gosh. So I actually took all my paintings down and what happened was last December, like I spent over $10,000 in storage and yeah. Through the years. And so in December of not 2020, but December, 2019, I gifted so many of my pieces away. And I kept like my babies of my babies that I like putting they're like at my sister's house in LA and my brother's house. I kept, I kept some pieces.
I gifted a lot of pieces away and I donated over 40 pieces to Goodwill in 20, in 2019. So they're all signed. So someone has somewhere in the world has my pick on paint. Oh, you're so sweet. Thank you.
And you know, we're just going to pop up again, right? Like, like you might see it in a magazine in like 10 years, literally stumped up,
Like one is signed by Jessica Simpson Because I do, I do, I do three-dimensional art as well. And so one of my pieces, I had Jessica Simpson sign and I did a collage and I put it on there. So I signed it. So it was both of our signatures on one piece. So the guy gave it to, he worked at the Goodwill and he's like, I'm gonna hang this right above my bed. I said, listen, I'm like, do not. I'm like, keep it. I'm like, do not sell it for under $10,000. He's like, I won't, he's like, I'm not, he goes, I'm not selling it. I'm like, just, don't say, I'm like to hold on to it. Yeah. And there was this other one and I told, I told this guy, I'm like, do not sell it for under $25,000, just hold onto it.
Oh, that's really cool. I have my work like seated throughout like the country too in some places like, obviously some of souls, but I've also like gifted some work and you know, some work, I just kinda like, you know, I, you know, I would just leave it. Somebody, somebody puts up a show and then I just kind of like leave the painting with them, just to see where going to pop up in like 20 years. It's going to be interesting to see I did it on purpose and it several times intentionally like leaving a painting with somebody and then also gifting. I've done that before.
But a lot of my pieces when I get it
Into the world.
Yeah. When I, when I got rid of my house in LA, I gifted some pieces to people who would come over and really admired my work. And I knew they would, they would put it in their home and sometimes they take photos and they show me, and of course I've had shows and I've sold work and everything like that. My pieces, I like to do like 60 by 30 or 40 by 40, like I'd like to do massive pieces. So, you know, it took up a lot of space and, you know, so, so that's that. And then I just decided to move more into the digital space and I did, I did some doodling. And so I've done some doodles I released during the pandemic angels and rainbows, which is on the sophisticated psycho streaming platform.
It's called angels and rainbows. And I created a lyrical video with my doodles on it. And so it's cool. So yeah, it was really cool. And then, and so th th the, and then, so, so, but I would, it would be really, really cool, I guess, to take the images that I have of the paintings of some that I have, and then the, some, the ones that I don't have and, and release a digital art book. That could be really cool.
Really cool idea.
Yeah. So then people can see, cause I took photos of all of them. So then, so I could, I think that's what I'll do. Thank you. I'm I'm, I'm, I'm going to do that. I'm going to release an art book of my pieces,
Like a digital catalog kind of thing, right?
Yeah. I'm going to do that because of you. That's what just burst from one of the, one of the things that burst from this conversation is just that, thank you.
That'd be a great, I mean, cause like I didn't even know you worked against her, like that's amazing. Like I've seen, I've seen some of the videos you do, like on your Instagram feed with like they're, they're, they're super creative. They're art by itself, you know? But like, it'd be amazing to see her actual paintings.
Oh yeah. I mean the, they, they come off the canvas there. I do. 'em a couple of different forms. One it's called it's nature on canvas. So I take all wilted roses and bamboo and leaves. And it's this like whole romance series where it's like, it goes, go with like bronze and wood Z like very like romantic on it will look good, like on brick, you know? And so that's one and then the other one I do, it's more like the three-dimensional one that I do. It's very like pop culture art. There's like, I have like air mez boxes and Chanel boxes, like coming off the canvas and I have this like real silver spoon and I had these like amazing Chanel earrings and they were like $400 each and I lost one and sometimes, yeah.
It's okay. But I know they're amazing, but sometimes I'll just like wear like two different earrings in, in the ears, but I just took this and the whole metaphor of like growing up with a silver spoon in your mouth, you know? So I took, I took a silver spoon. I'm a massive silver spoon and I put the Chanel earring and I, the clear stuff, like right on it. So it would, so you could see, it's like totally a Chanel earring in this silver
Spoon. It's amazing. Do you have a photo of that one? Oh
Yeah. And I have that. I have it still. I didn't give it away. Yeah. It's at my sister's house and I mean that that's, that's $250,000. That
It's amazing. Yeah. That's amazing. And you still have, you have it still, right? I have it yet. It's amazing. Yeah. A question I have, because you were mentioning all like Pinterest and you were mentioning YouTube. What about Wikipedia? Do you know anything about that as like an outlet to, you know, for people to find you through that? Are you on there? I'm not on there. That's why I'm asking like
A new pin. I have a friend who can get you on there. He can, he even, I don't know. He's so busy right now, but I don't know if he would be able to write your bio, but you probably have all that together. But if he can't do it, he used to rep this is like 10 years ago. He used to like manage a bunch of writers. But I know he, he, I think he, I was on Wikipedia already as an actor, but there were some things that were like off on it. So he was able to go in and like update my Wikipedia. So I have a contact for you for that, for sure.
So you have a Wikipedia? Oh yeah, of course. That's awesome. I don't know. I don't know any, I've tried to do my own like a couple of years ago and I didn't really know what I was doing. So like I thought I had it and it was not accepted. And so since then, I've been like, how do you get Wikipedia?
But
There's like a trick to it. Right? Like somebody has to know how to do it.
I have no idea. I don't know how to do. I have no idea, but my friend manual Corello I can introduce you to
Him,
Arrange it for, you know, for, cause that would be the go-to person for him to help you. But I know like I'm on INDB I movie database as an actor
Probably helps a lot.
No, no, that's not the separately. I was just saying, because I was transitioning because I have my podcasts and I'm an actor and I'm like, I, you know, Joe Rogan, I'm like, I want people needing an industry to know about my podcast. So I want to put it on IMD, be in a zone. Who's the one who got me on the train tracks of my podcast. She submitted hers to IMD B and it was rejected and I submitted mine and they accepted it. So yeah. And so I don't know why we both did the same exact thing, but like Joe Rogan, he has his podcast on Wikipedia. I mean, on an IMD B. So I w mine don't have the episodes. I need to have someone go and like backtrack and put all my episodes on there.
But like, my, it is up there, which is great for, so for any producers and directors looking at me as an actor, like, what has she been up to? They can see. Cause I took a break from onscreen acting. Then they can see like, oh, she's been killing it in the podcast game. You know what I'm saying?
That's super awesome. I didn't even know you could post on IMDV actual podcasts.
Yeah. Well, I didn't know either until she told me about it and I was like, okay, cool. We did a mastermind session and then we did it.
Awesome. So you're all over social media. That's really cool. Yeah.
I mean, you, you really need to be, you need to be everywhere. You need to be on all platforms. You need to know.
The only one I've mastered is a have mastered Instagram. At least. I think I have. Other than that, like I don't tweet. And you know, YouTube is like a whole new story for me. So this has been very educational
And beast. It is its own beast. And, and the thing is you'll get burned out and you can't do everything your own soul. It's awesome. You're like, Instagram's my jam for me. I love Instagram. Like the chonacas one, nothing scheduled on there. My she's all over the place. Podcasts, Instagram is new. That's going to everything. There is going to be scheduled out the sophisticated cycles. Everything there is going to be scheduled out, but those that's like, you know, that's podcasts and the sophisticated psychos is, you know, my music and my production. So that's scary. But when it comes to chonacas, that's like my personal. So like that one is not going to be scheduled. Like I'm not going to have those scheduled. I want to, because for me that's the fun of it. So like the magic and the fun. So the fun of posting and ticktack, that's, that's my new jam.
Oh yeah. That's another one. My niece is all over ticked off. Like, oh my God, I don't even know how I re like incorporate art into Tik TOK, but oh my God. Oh my God. Like images of me painting. Like, I don't know.
Oh my God. Yes. Yes. The Tik TOK should be tick-tock and Instagram should be your number one thing. And then the tick tock, when you go to tick tock, when you can link to, you can link to your Instagram and you can link to your YouTube channel. That's how all these tic talkers and YouTube people became so big because you can do shorter form content and then have them go to your Instagram. You can post it in tick talk and do all these cool things. And it's only 30, 15, 30 or 60 seconds shorter from content. And you do proper hashtags and get your niche market and brand going over on Tik TOK. And then they can follow you on Instagram and they can follow your YouTube page. And, and for me, it's fun. So like, for me, like the best thing you can do as an artist and musician is Tik TOK.
That's where you have the most creative control. So I'm just starting to follow me on Tik. TOK is Chonacas
My last day.
I'll teach you how to do hashtagging hacks as well. So people actually see your content because there's like ways you can do things. So you can actually have your content be seen buying things, bots don't ever do that. Buying Oregon. Does someone contact you? Do you want more followers? You want the verification, all those bots don't do any of it. Don't do it because what happens is your stuff's not going to be seen and your stuff can be taken at any time. Yeah, exactly. Yup. You don't want to do anything that's fake. Yeah.
Like I know some artists did, they're not necessarily tech savvy people, but they post their stuff on Instagram and they don't seem to have like, like, it was not like they have like 20,000 followers or anything, but like they get thousand likes per image. And I asked them like, what are you doing to get so many likes per image? They don't know. They just post. And it's like, it just drives them crazy. Cause it's like,
No. Or they're not telling you.
I, yeah. I, I think I know some of them pretty well that I believe that they don't really know. I mean, is that possible? Like somehow they just got picked up on the algorithm and they don't know how they did it or, or is there some
Trick to it? Are they doing hashtags?
They hashtag, but nothing specific, like nothing that like, oh, I should use that hashtag it's just, and their art is nice, but it's not like
The links, let me, I have to viscerally. See what it looks like.
Yeah. I'll send you billings afterwards. Cause, cause you know, the, guy's a really nice guy. He's not tech savvy. He's got, he makes good art. Like I like his paintings, but like he gets so many likes and it just, it baffles me. It just baffles me. So like, I'll send you his link and you can, it'd be like figuring out what he said.
Oh yeah, there are just so you know, FYI there's I don't have them on top of mine, but there are three different sites that you can type in and you can type in the person's social media account, Instagram, YouTube. And you can see if they're bots, if they're real or if they're bot, if it's fake or not.
Interesting.
Yeah. You can see if their analytics are real.
I know I have, you know, all that man. It's easy. You have all the answers to everything I need to know. It's amazing.
Oh, well that's very sweet. I mean, but I mean, I I've educated myself as an artist business woman and it's what I do. I love to give valued insight and support people and help people along the way. And also like, I make money at doing it because I'm self-taught and I've invested to learn about these things. Just like you invested, you know, in your education and in your art and your interests. So, you know, it pays off,
We're talking about like, you know, social media platforms. What about the name escapes me, but where you can like raise money to put out a product and then you have different tiers.
Patrion. You should hold him down. Yes. You need to have a Patrion. Yes. I got one. I haven't been active on it. I'm going to have another VA do that. You need people helping. You can't do it all. It's too much, but yes, you need a Patrion. So if you go to mind, follow me or whatever, just you can look, you can ID like a tier for, it's like a tier for $3, a tier for like a second tier. And then I did a tier for like, I dunno, like 175. So you could do different tiers where you're offering different things. Right. And they're interchangeable. I just put three up just to like have something up, but I haven't shared it. I've only, I've only put it on the bottom of a couple of my podcasts episodes. So I haven't like really promoted it yet, but it would be a great evergreen ad to do on Facebook to promote my Patrion and have the link on my website.
Yeah. And so like have like if you had a Twitter you could have in your Twitter link, if you have it on your website, have it on your website, you know, have it be visible so people can find it, but you can't just like put the link up, you have to put 300, at least 300 words and use key words of what it's about. Like the are supporting artists that era. So it pops up on the Google.
That's so much information. Like my mind is melting, but like, I, I totally get it. Like it's a whole new world. I just never thought as a visual artist, there would be any value in that like figure like, like, I don't know. I gotta do more research. Cause is maybe that's another avenue. Like I can, I'm always wondering like, when's the next opportunity going to come? Like I just, I don't really know how to make them happen. Like getting into different groups shows, getting into, having another show. But
For you, I can, like, I can give you bullet points and visions and connect you with some other people. But the thing is like you were saying like that woman, she was living from 2009. That's a two dimensional world. We're in, we're in Aquarius. We're in the fifth dimension. Now I agree completely. We're not in a two dimensional world where you pick one thing and only do one thing. And then you pick one thing and then you retire you for 40 years and then you retire. Like we were not in that world. So anyone who's giving you that information, they're telling you that because that's what they know. And it's like information old computer. And it's not that they're trying to give you wrong advice. They just don't know what they don't know that they don't know that they don't know. Do you know the landmark theory? No. Yeah. The landmark theory is like, is awesome for you because it's basically how I look at it.
It's like a blank canvas. So everything, every person you talk to, even if it's your mother, whoever, if you go to them with a blank canvas, then you're giving them the benefit of the doubt for all possibilities. But if you go to your mother and there's five things already on the canvas, you're already judging her. You're already expecting it to be some way then you're, then you're already, you know, critiquing it and you're already designing how the outcome is going to be. You give no room for anything on the canvas.
Wow. That's an amazing theory. That's very cool. Cause like you're closing yourself off to possible opportunities if there's stuff on the canvas, when you go to somebody. Yeah,
Yeah. Even, yeah, totally. Even if try, even if it's a person that you already know and you're going to expect the same thing from them every single time you go to them and you dismantle those expectations and you go to them, you know, and to create with them or make an opportunity, allow what is to be what is without being upset or let down or knowing that it didn't work out. Because when you leave that room for the unknown, then there's more space for more unknowns and the unknown, that's where the magic
Happens. Right? So it's like no expectations,
No expectations. And expectations is a death threat. Comparing and expectations is setting ourselves up for failure.
Comparing is great that you mentioned that because that was one of the things that like, I feel as a human being, it's toxic, but it's so hard not to do like how come this guy got that show? How come that woman is struggling with this gallery?
Like constant like comparison. And sometimes not always, but sometimes it just it's like a, it just like a black hole. You just go down it and your dooms, how do you keep from going there? Okay. So w because, okay, it really has a power over you. So it's not hard when you're not doing it. And when you're aware of it and you're aware of it, and then you catch yourself doing it and then you grab the bull by the horn and you say, stop that. Okay, cool. You want to do that? Okay. That's that's the old me. We're not doing that. They're you're not paying rent in my head here. Stop it, stop it, call it out. Stop it.
It was conscious. It's consciously telling yourself to stop.
Yeah. You, you have and just be firm and don't be mean to yourself. Don't swear at yourself. Don't be mean to yourself. Just call it out and be like, oh, you're doing that thing. And then five minutes later, oh, you're doing it again. 10 minutes later, an hour later, you're doing it again. But I caught you. So be friended, befriend the monster and beef. And then the more you call it out, the more you call it out, the more it minimizes. And so basically it's this couple of things. One Joe Dispenza, Dr. Joe Dispenza, he's going to be your new best friend. He has a great, he has a podcast. He has a bunch of videos on YouTube, Dr. Joe Dispenza. And he's a neurological scientist. And it's, so we have 60 to 70,000 thoughts per day and night. None of those thoughts have the same thoughts and most of them are negative.
So you're firing and wiring firing and wiring your brain neurotransmitters. So when you're constantly doing it over and over, you're firing and wiring, but when you stop it and you call it out, you're on firing. You're on wiring. You're pulling the roots out. You're pulling the roots out. You're pulling the 60 to 70,000 thoughts. You're pulling those dirty, ugly roots that you don't want to be having. And you're shifting it. And you're replacing it with what you do want the power of the word and the power of the sound and the vibes of the vibration of what comes out of our mouth is so important. So how we say something, right, right. What we're thinking is energy.
Energy is energy emotion. If you're stuck, if something's been going on since 2009, that stigma it's been a concrete block, that's been blocking you. But once that concrete is gone, you're going to be like, oh my God, you're like a whole new person with all these new opportunities. And it becomes fighting play land again.
Right? Yeah. That's so cool because I always wondered, like, it's true in anything, but like, I've always wondered as, you know, actors, like you try out for a role and, you know, do you get it? Do you not get it? Who got it? Why did they get it? Like, it just seems like it's just like a black hole that just kinda manifests with like, you know, self doubt and comparison and like worry. And like, just, it's also toxic, but it seems like it's, it's so pervasive that like how I never even understood how someone could be an actor because of that, you know, you're going up for her same role. Like, why are you going to get it over them? It just, I mean, I was never an actor, so I never pursued any of that. But it just, the thought, because it's, I've known actors as like, I don't know how they handle it, but in my own way, as an artist, I deal with the same kind of shit.
Like, you know, when I'm, when I go down that rabbit hole, which I don't mean to do, but I feel like it's like a human thing. Like, you know, how come I don't have a show there, you know? But like, it's, it's so
A couple of things, one, even though we say we don't want to, I don't know about you, there's something addictive. And there's something exciting about going down that dark rabbit hole, where you be calm. It's like masochistic, where like, you feel like you have to, or want to as an artist to really feel it, the trueness of that piece or that soul. There's something very, there's something in there. You're getting something from it that they're getting, we get something from it. And then, cause I would be like, I would get to this place and someone in my life try to keep me from going there. But I liked going there. I liked going there and feeling the pain and the hurt and sorrow. And that's how I felt my poetry and my paintings.
And that's how I thought it was going to be raw and real. And then there was a point where it's like, where I admitted to liking it and allowed myself to go there. And then a lot of sitting there and I got to a point I'm like, this is what I like to feel. And then over and over, and then there was a kind of a conscious moment where it's like, yeah, I like this feeling, but actually it's probably not that good for me. It's not, probably not healthy for me. I probably don't have to do this to be a true artist. I probably don't have to feel like a victim or feel like this poor lost child or that, that feeling that I thought was twisted. Like I actually, it's not, it's actually not making me feel good anymore.
And so, you know, it was like a practice and a reminder and I would do more. So when I got to those places, I would allow myself to go there, but then maybe do a facial mask or take a bath or write or do something therapeutic to nurture that inner child that felt abandoned in her and alone and misunderstood, you know? Cause that happens along our journey. So it's before having our own selves and our, our artist,
You should write a book about all this stuff. Like, like you could be like, you yourself could be like a self-help group for the arts.
That's the book
Title. I mean, you, you know, stuff. I mean, I mean, it's like putting it into practice is like the hard part, but like
Applying it what you were saying earlier, what you were saying earlier, you said something and it didn't come out. You were saying, you know, certain things, this and that, but then applying what, you know, applying it. I should take my own advice. Hey, I just called myself on it too. I just call them. I just call him myself on it too. That's why I went live three days ago. And that's because I called them. I tell I've, I know it's a hack, it's a half to go live because you bust the algorithm by going live. And I, the imposter syndrome and my everything's not perfect. So I w waiting for the right moment to go live and blah, blah, blah, anyways. And I was going to upload my book and I was telling this guy some hacks and, and I'm like, you know what, I'm going to do it.
And I'm like, yo, what's up, everyone. I'm going live, blah, blah, blah. And then I called myself out and I did it. I applied what I knew that I needed to do that I tell everyone to do, but it's like, I'm like this walking, talking billboard, but I'm going to do it yourself. Exactly. I'm calling myself out on. The other thing I want to share with you is this, you were mentioning about the actors, the psychological journey, how they don't, you don't know they did it. And yeah, it applies to artists, painters, musicians. It applies to, you know, that field. Well, I'm gonna share a short story in 2005, I tested, which means I signed my life away for seven years. I was getting 75,000 for the pilot, 55,000 per episode.
And I have, and it was my first quota in Hollywood and this is how much I was getting per episode for the pilot. Right. And that, and then the pilot needs to get picked up of course. Right, right. Oh, it was between me and two other girls. And I was like, right there. I was. So it was like, boom, my first pilot season, I had a great team. I had this great energy. And I remember when I got the call, the news that I wasn't going any further. Okay. I literally went into a black hole for about three days, which felt like seven days. And I told myself, no matter what, nothing was ever worth going, getting that black and that deep and that sad because I was so high because it's like, all your dreams are coming true when I moved to halt and it, boom, it happens in like, you know, the first year of acting like my first pilot season and I'm like testing and like, I I'm exciting my life away.
And like I see this money and then all my illusions and everything coming to life. And then it just all comes crushing down. So I had to like be my own safety net and tell myself, because I went to where I went to a, no one knows, but you and the listeners, I've never told this story before, that could go in the book. But that example, right. But I went to such a place where I had to tell myself, I would never allow myself to go to that place and nothing was ever because I was, I know what it's like to be very happy and very excited on that horse. But I went so low and I was in my room. Like I sat for three days and it felt like seven days. And it's just like I told myself, like, I will, no matter what, nothing in life, nothing in life until this day.
That was what, like now it's now it's while 16 years, almost 16 years. Cause it was in 2005 and not nothing, no matter what is worth going into that deep dark black space. Thank God I wasn't on drugs. Oh my God. If I was on drugs, I mean, I'd probably not even be here right now, but you know, so like screw that crap, but it's so worth it. It was hard. And right now, as I'm talking about it, I feel still coming up. It was a lonely, lonely place and I was all by myself and it was sad. It was so sad because I was so excited and, and I just, you know, like it's something that you wanted to happen or I wished it would have happened and it didn't, and then it, and then you go on the Artist journey, but yeah.
Yeah. Wow. What a powerful story. But like, there was a part of you that still was able to tell yourself that, you know, this is not a good place to be. That's like that that's, that's amazing. Like where did that come from? Cause that's very like, that's, that's what got you out of it.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it happened for a couple of reasons. One because I, I had the space to be in my room for three days and like cry and sleep and just allow the emotional toxicity to pass me. Cause it was all those neurochemical things coming on through me on a cellular level that was coming and going and I was able to sleep it off. And then I was able to like re like go to the bathroom, hydrate reflect. And since I was able to reflect, and since then when I came to a place of reflection, because I was able to like sleep it off and then talk to myself about it. I think because I wasn't on drugs, I think because I had such a strong conviction of who I was and I wanted, and I knew my destiny of, you know, if this wasn't, it it'll be something else, but I just wouldn't allow myself to get bad upset over it again, you know, but I guess, I guess I would have to definitely what's keeps coming up inside is my faith, like some kind of faith in whatever that is for you and the listeners, whatever that faith is.
Just some kind of faith and knowing, you know, and, and trust and knowing not externally, but internal faith and knowing, and you know, and I, I felt deep down. I had that. Yeah.
I've deep down. I feel I have that too, which is why I, I, I keep at it, you know, but if you, if you asked me like, you know, what's next, like honestly at the moment, I don't know what's next. Like, I don't have anything like lined up in terms of like a show, group show or another solo show at different gallery. I've no clue what's going to happen next when I'm going to sign my next painting, et cetera. But I have some like, despite all the worry and the insecurity and the anxiety about how it's going to happen, like below that I have this deep faith that it's going to happen. I just don't know when, where, how, what
You have to make it happen. You need that. It can't be, oh, I don't know what's going to happen anymore. Cause that's the excitement part. But you need to make it happen for me listening to this, you know, from what we've chatted about for me when you're like, oh, I don't know what it is for me, for me. It's you setting up your online business. Right? Right. You know, your, your brand and no one's going to do it for you, but you, right. That's a good point. And unless you want to do it, no one else is going to care. If you care, people will show up. If you want to show up and show people who you are and get everything in order, the machine can operate on its own, but you need to set it up. It's your life, it's your destiny. It's your work.
So I guess that's what I'm doing next. Then just answered my question.
Yeah. Taking actionable steps because no one knows you better than you.
Yeah. This has been very helpful. Like, I feel like I got a lot more out of this than I expected
Memorable. We talked about expectations.
Yeah. It's a good point. Well, I didn't really, you know, I didn't really know. I, I was like nervous. I was like, I don't want, I'm going to say, I don't know what to talk about, you know, but like I did it anyway. Like, you know, it was, it was this great. You showed up. It's been a great experience. Yes. Yes.
You're very sweet. I agree. And actually, it's one of the best conversations I've had. I feel like all my podcasts so far, it really, really is because it really, you know, moves through me. It's like artists, artists, like talking to me cause I'm like, yeah, cool. Cause you're, you're the first painter I had on. And I mean like, I mean, that's my heart and soul like poetry painting, you know, like everything else is an extension off of that. Right?
Yep. Exactly.
So switching kind of gears here from like business entrepreneurial mode to a and hope I, you know, and live listeners on here, if you've gained a lot of insight and valuable information, you know, make sure to follow us on social media, the links will be in the platform and hit the five star, leave a dope review, share this with your artist friends. But I kind of, I know you mentioned the one French painter who you admired, you know, are there some, is there a movie or two that you could recommend to the listeners
Movie? I wonder like I'm not a big movie buff. Like I don't really have a movie. I mean, I'm not a movie person. I know
Art documentary or something in school that you thought was really compelling for an artist to see.
Well, if you're talking specifically about a painting or artists, I would say there's something there's a documentary called painters painting and it it's it. I don't really remember it that well, but I remember seeing it in an art school and just being blown away. And it's basically just like a documentary that follows multiple painters around. And you basically get to hear these artists talking about like their process it's painters, painting. Thank you. Just Google it. And you could find it. I forget where, where, where actually like what platform it might be on, but it's out there and Google will tell you that was probably one of the most important things that I've ever seen specific to art because it allowed like something happens when I listen to other artists talk like it doesn't even matter if I don't personally like the aesthetic of what they're doing.
There's just something for me magical about listening to like pretty much any type of artists. But specifically when I talk to another visual artists, it's just like, like something happens like a door gets unlocked. And I just, I find that it just becomes this like amazing experience regardless of what I think about the actual art that they're creating. But more so like, if I love what they're doing, it's just one of those moments where I just want to like capture it. So this was like the first documentary that I've saw, where I had that experience, where I was like hearing other artists whom I admired talk about their work. It just seemed to be such a valuable and precious like experience. So I recommend that. Right. Great.
Thank you. And then of course, is there maybe like a book or two that you recommend for artists to look at?
There's well, personally I'm into like tons of like existential literature, which is not too, like, you know, it's not a surprise, but like as an artist, I would say one of the books that I read that was really, really, really helpful was it was literally like, I mean, it's just more technical, but it was called the artist handbook, which is a book all about how to mix paint and like, you know, how to use different materials. And even though I didn't necessarily learn anything specific from that, that was helpful to me just reading the whole book is by someone named Ralph Mayer was very, very helpful. And then there's this other book by John Dewey, D E w E Y called art as experienced, which is the classic.
And I highly recommend that to any artist. And then I'll, I'll mention another book, forget, forget the title, but it's believe it's by van Gogh and it's his letters to his brother and it talks about it's basically just him being like, completely honest about like how he's feeling as an artist. And it's pretty, it's completely honest and it's really dark and it's like, you get a good entryway into the how, I mean, and not like, it's not like he's a martyr or like, you know, being an artist is any kind of like marketer Dem, but like, you know, it's a, it's a tough road and just reading his letters that he wrote to his brother, just knowing that that's that know, that's how he felt at certain points in his career.
It's really it's touching, but it's also like very like soothing because
I haven't
Read it. You should read it. You should read that because it's like, I mean, you know, he, he struggled a lot as an artist in terms of his success and what he wanted to achieve during his lifetime. I mean, I'm not, I mean, you know, he's classic. Like everyone knows Vanguard. I don't personally like worship his work or anything. He's not like somebody who I would say like, I love everything he did, but I totally respect him. And just reading those letters were kind of looking at my bookshelf now, let's see if I can find it reading his letters was just like mind bending and very helpful because it made me feel like, you know, I'm not alone. Like, you know, not to compare myself with him, but just like some of the feelings of, you know, you have as an artist about, you know, putting your work out there and just trusting that like something's going to happen with it.
It's, it's, it's a process. So that was the first book that I read that really made me kind of like similarly to the movie where I was, I connected in a way with like, you know, his thoughts and I realized, you know, we're, I'm on the same path, you know, like different. So I'll get the information and like emailing it to you. I believe it's called letter. Oh yeah, here it is. Letters of Vincent van Gogh. It's right. My bookshelf right here.
Amazing artists, right?
Yeah, it is. I recommend you read that, like to be very touched by.
Yeah. I'm going to definitely. Thanks for sharing that. It's so coarse and not to compare me to Vango just like you not to compare, but my name is St. Kyriaki. I am named after a Saint and she was a martyr.
Wow. That's incredible.
It's it's, it's, it's, it's something to live up to. I've had, that's why I've also like had this like pressure and honor, and like, there's this like Regal honor to be named after this, like prominent Saint and you know, in the Greek tradition, like when you say Kyriaki, there's like, there's like a lot of churches, there's an island of yucky. Like it's very rare. Like you see here a lot of Dimitris and Yannis, and a lot of like Greek names, but Kyriaki is like a rare name, like our prime minister. And he's kidding. I cross the male version of Kyriaki, but like, it's a very rare name. So it's my Yaz name who I'm named after, but yeah, she was a martyr. So it's like, it's a, it's an honor. And it's a, it's a, it's a big deal.
And it's important. Like a lot of people, like when you talk to them, it's like, they don't even know what their name means. It's like, what did they have no idea. It's like, you know, culture, like get inspired. Like if you were saying earlier, like you were dabbling in everything cause you were interested in.
Yeah. And I didn't know where it would lead, but I was, I was drawn to it. I took the chance
Lord and same thing with like the podcast being called she's all over the place. I dabbled and did things. And for more than a decade, I didn't just dabble for four to six weeks. Let me try cooking or something. I traveled the world. I went on tour a 57 G unit. I worked with dinero Pachino Nicholas cage. Like I was working with 19 Ayla stars in one year. Like, you know what I mean? Like I really went from zero to here hero and I dabbled in things. And then after 20 years of experiencing things, now it's like, okay, let me set up my brands, rebrand and really go full force for the next two decades of my year. You know, here's my adult blueprint for me.
I I'm surprised, like I mentioned this a minute ago, but like I forgot what you said. Have you ever considered writing a book?
Ah, well I'm releasing my first poetry book, so that's my first book. And so then I'm just, I'm going to come in and keep it going. But you know what I mean? But yeah, we should talk. We should write it. We should do a book together or something
Insane. That would be so fun. It'd be fun to do
A book together. I think it'd be more fun. It's a great idea. Yeah. We could do a book together. W I mean with self publishing, it's just boom. When you just the number one thing for everyone listening on here, the number one thing to do is if you don't know how it's going to get done, you don't know how to do it. The number one thing is like set a date. So it's like, okay, today's whatever. And you're like, I can do this in a month or I can do this in six months or I'm going to put myself under the gun and I really want to focus. And I'm going to do this in three months and you set the date and you do it in the moment you set a date. Even if you need to reschedule the move that day. When you have a hard date, you tell the universe that you have the discipline and your energy and everything starts magnifying.
The people who need to show up will show up the people who need to get out of your way will get out of your way. Because the number one most valuable thing in our lives, Gary V says this. He was a keynote at worlds worlds with the Z. It's this amazing conference that happens in Hollywood. I went to a few years ago and he said, the number one thing is our attention more than money. When you, when, when someone has an idea like you and I I'm like, oh, let's do the book together. That's a $4 million idea. Any idea that anyone has, if it's a $4 million idea, period, boom, boom, boom, boom. Then besides that, the number one thing is you are here listening and Gabriel's on the call with me and I'm on the phone with him and we're giving each other attention right now.
It's the most. And there's so many things going on, but the number one thing we're doing is I'm putting my energy out and you're putting your energy out. And the people listening are putting their energy onto us. So that's, we value you. And that's the number one most valuable thing where attention goes energy flows. So when you set a date to put something in motion for your book or for your art show, or to buy paint supplies, or to save up to buy paint supplies or whatever that is, it automatically starts working for you. So set the date and you know, if you need to move it, move it that like rescheduled for two weeks later, one month later, but set the date and make it happen. Period.
That's great advice. I got us share my, my brief experience with something like that. I remember like I took a, I was like, you know, before I got this gallery, I was gallery lists and I was just like, what's going to be next. What's gonna be next. And I thought like, you know, if tomorrow I got a phone call and was offered a show, do I even have the work? And I looked around the studio and I was like, I don't even have enough work. So I made a goal. I'm making my show. I didn't know when it was going to happen, how it was going to happen if it was going to happen. But I just knew like, you know, I set a date. I made all the work for my future solo show and I got that show. And the work that I made was in the show. I couldn't have planned it better, but there's something magical universe energy about, about what you just said that I think is absolutely true because I changed my focus instead of worrying or complaining about like, oh, what's next for me?
Like, how am I going to get the next thing? As I said, Nope, you're going to make your work for your next show, wherever it's going to be. It's going to happen, make the work. And that's what I did. And I just stayed in my studio and I made piece after piece after piece. And I got the show like, so that's a perfect manifestation of exactly what you were saying.
Yeah. Yeah. Complaining is dead way. If anyone's, if you're complaining, if anyone's complaining, it's dead weight, stop the complaining. If you're around people who are always complaining, cut them off the team, the team it's, it's toxic. It's bad. It keeps you stuck. It's just, it's it's not good. If there's complaining, going on, turn the music up loud. So you can't hear your own thoughts, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just start dancing. You know what I mean? Like get out of your head. Like, that's what I need to do. Cause I'm an analytical person. I'm in my gut, I'm in my heart. But also like I'm a overthinker, I guess one would call it, but I just need to get out of it. They say, oh, get out of your own way. We just need to get out of her own way, you know?
But I think it'd be really cool. Yeah. Like from what you're saying, put everything together and just have like an online show. And you also, when you set up your business, then you can have like giveaways, you know, like limited time, blah, blah, blah, and do like popups. You can do online popups for your art. So it's like limited time. These three pieces are available, blah, blah, blah. And so since it's a limited time, people act fast. People act now and they want people like that. Rush and excitement. And there are people out there who want to support artists. And there are people out there who want to buy things. That's true.
That's true. It's about connecting with them.
Yeah. I've never done crowdfunding. I was hesitant. I've tried to raise a lot of capital, blah, blah, blah. I've never done the crown funding. Like indie Gogo will find me things because of the imposter syndrome of my ego, blah, blah, blah. But, but now I'm setting it up and I'm actually going to create a campaign because Hey, even if you don't hit your goal, that's free publicity later at the end, it does. It's, it's being vulnerable and it's putting yourself out there, but it doesn't matter what people think about you because they're the people who are gonna like say anything or minimize you. Those are, those are those people. Aren't going to be supporting, buying your work and supporting your art. You want to reach the people outside of the people that you already know. Those are the people who want to buy your art.
And then by putting yourself out there, like my friend Ali, Sandra, my producing partner, she's like, you know, okay. She's like, there are people on indie Gogo when you put up your two minute video and you're like, here's my mission. This is what I'm doing. There are people who want to help people and pay it forward. And there are people who have a lot of money or just have some money, but they, they can, it's a tax write off and they can, they just want to partake and invest in help the artists in the world, especially in times like now. And so there are people who just want to be a part of your mission, who don't even know you that could actually contribute and be, and be a part of your, whatever you're doing. So like, you know, put together that mission statement and be vulnerable and make a two minute video. It's a quick thing and put it up on the Indiegogo and get a campaign going and get some funds to make your things happen.
So that's a
Process that you're about to embark on.
I'm doing it hands down. It's great. It's great publicity for yourself. Oh my God. Even if whoever's not involved, it's great. And people, even if they can't, they'll share it with someone who may be can. Yeah. That's a good point. I do it all the time. When I see things I'll support. And then if I'm not supporting, sometimes I'll just share it or I'll just send it to someone because I know they're connected to that type of thing. And the look on my God, thanks so much for sending this to me. That's cool. Yeah. This woman,
So many platform is actually like a really good time to be an artist, whatever your, your medium is because of all these outlets. It's like, what, what did people do before this? Like, I guess you, you were like a slave to the record company or the art gallery that you worked at because you had no, you couldn't really have agency on your own.
Everything has changed. It's it's in your playing field because of the pandemic. Everything blew up. Anything that was traditional, anything that was, was it just, all those old grids came down. It's a new world. It's a whole new world. We're living in the now of new times. And anything goes with ethics, morals, and values, you know, and bringing true to yourself as an artist, not hurting other people. You know what I mean? And not doing things that are illegal. And that means you can do hacks, get educated and do smart hacks. But like, you know, when you're cheating someone else and you're hurting someone else, you're only hurting yourself and cheating yourself. At the end of the day, you're looking at yourself in the mirror in five years, you're looking at yourself if you're alive and then you're dead inside because you caught corners and you and you, and you cheated someone and you're cheating yourself because we're all connected.
And if you don't understand the part of us being all connected, keep listening to this podcast Interested and keep evolving because we are all connected. That is
So true. And so well said, too,
That should go in. The book
Should go in the book.
You write it, I'll say it. Then we'll put your art
In it. Yeah. You could put a couple pieces in it. That'd be great
If we're doing a collaboration. For
Sure. I'll never know. You never know what comes from it.
Yeah. Yeah. So this has been a great, great conversation all around.
It has. Thank you so much for this opportunity.
Of course, of course. I would love to have you back on. Definitely
I'll come back. We can talk again. I mean, this has been very, very insightful and helpful in ways that are just like, beyond, beyond alive. Didn't really have expectations. Like I mentioned, but it's, it's it, this has been way more helpful than I think you understand, like for me, at least, so thank you.
It's a Friday night and we feel, and we're grueling in and moving in and moving and grooving. Yeah. I was having dinner. I was having dinner and I'm just like, yo, yo it's Friday night was a what's up man. What's up on Friday night. And it's like, oh yeah, recording a podcast. That's the new jam. You know, when you're like littler, like you're like doing other things on a Friday night. And I'm like, yeah, this is my jam on a Friday night with a,
Yeah, I'm going to walk my little doggy after this. And then, you know, that's, that's my Friday night, my dog, his name is miss Foxy, F O X I E. He's just over two years old. She's a beautiful little American ESCO, which is for those that don't know a white little fluffy thing. She looks like a white Arctic Fox. Cute. She's my sweetheart
TB accompany during these times.
Absolutely. She's so lucky. Cause I mean, even without the pandemic, I'd probably like, I'm way more anxious because of the pandemic. But my day to day hasn't really changed that much. I mean, I'm way more isolated, which is a lot, if, you know, we talked about earlier because I'm in my studio all the time, but basically I've been in my studio, like the entire pandemic, just making new work. So that wouldn't have been that much different. Had there not been a pandemic, but there's still so many, so many things that have, you know, for everyone that just is, is, I mean the whole thing has been an absolute nightmare, but my day to day is pretty much the same. Yeah.
Yeah. Totally, totally. So two things I want to wrap up with step one, where is somewhere in the world that you want to go, that you haven't been to yet?
So they haven't been to yet Japan. I cannot wait to go to Japan. Nice.
Me too. That's one of my places I've
Never been so excited. Yeah.
Yeah. Same. And then lastly, any thoughts, where's the wisdoms. Anything you want to tell? Like if, if you were to tell artists out there, maybe you would tell to your younger self something that, you know, you can share with the, with the artists out there,
This follow your passion and your intuition, regardless of what anyone else says. And if you, if you love drawing, if you love singing, if you love whatever you love doing creatively, like just do it. And who knows where it will lead. Because the one thing that for me was so difficult to accept, believe it or not was that I was an artist and I didn't know like really what that meant. I didn't, I didn't want to call myself an artist in the beginning and a friend of mine, he said, you know, the definition of an artist is someone who makes art. Like, it's that simple. So if you make art, regardless of what happened with it, you're an artist and you're allowed to call yourself an artist. I've found it like so many people I've spoken to fellow artists. They always felt like really uncomfortable about like, you know, cause they're not sure about their work.
They're not sure what they're trying to say. They're not necessarily like completely like confident in their direction. And so they feel very apprehensive and really have a hard time just saying that you're an artist, but if you take the simple definition that it's like somebody who creates, then if you have the freedom, declare yourself an artist. For me, that was very hard at the last creative outlet that I have found. Cause I was doing so many different things was ironically my first love, which was painting. But I didn't know that until I allowed myself to follow that, that weird drive that I had, which was to experiment and do it. So I don't know if that makes any sense, you know, it's been so freeing. Yeah. And, and as a result of that, I've literally some people that I've met, like they don't know what their purpose is in life.
And like, I can't understand that because like my purpose is to create like regardless of what happens with it and I'm completely confident in that fact. But like to get to that point, there was a lot of time where I was like pretty dark and unsure of like what I was doing. It can record industry. I didn't have any, like, it was kind of fun, you know, a VIP everywhere in the back, you know, backstage working with musicians and like, you know, developing their career. It was very exciting, but it felt like it didn't, it didn't feel like it was like my purpose. Like it seemed like very, I don't know, like just, just, I don't know, like there, there's gotta be more to life than this and now I feel like completely, like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.
If that means anything. Like, I don't know where it leads, but I know that this is what I'm meant to be doing. It's like through some higher power, like this is, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And like, I meet people that don't know what they're supposed to be doing in life. And it's just like, I don't understand that. I don't understand how you could just like go through life, not knowing what your, what your real purpose is. And because I allowed myself to pursue art, I found my purpose. It's just like, I'm so grateful for that. Even if I never sell another painting. So that's like a huge gift. So my advice would just be follow your passion.
Yeah. So I guess two things, one, I guess an actionable step, if someone's having that confliction of stating they're an artist maybe in their bedroom or in their planner or putting on their profile, artists, just put it out there, artists just to kind of make a statement about it. Right. Just to put it out there because you own it and actual steps.
And there's, there's a book out there too called the artist way, which
Is also Julie. Cameron. Yeah.
I didn't know her. Like I know her personally and I did the book and it kind of helped me to
My girlfriend, Ali Sondra's she's doing it right now. She's like on week four or whatever. She's like, she's like off all social media. She's only doing work stuff, but otherwise she's off all social media, things like that. So she's like, we're going to talk next week. K I'm like, okay, cool, cool. Yeah. Yeah. I read the book. I took myself on a day. I make K time. I took, I remember the first time I was upper west side and I took myself on a walk and that's awesome. Little K wanted to go on a walk. And I w we went on a walk and we just were scrolling the upper west side, strolling the upper west side. And I then little K wanted to go into a vintage bookstore and little K went all the way to the back. And I re I stood, I stayed there and I read Shakespeare for an hour.
That's what Kay wanted to do. Yeah. Yeah. I love, love, love a love that book. So the, I guess the last thing I would like to say because of what you were saying about like the purpose and, and no pressure everyone on here, but like, what if someone is, you know, conflicted rear lake, follow your passion, follow your intuition. I know along my journey, I I've been conflicted where I wasn't sure if my intuition was my intuition, like, how do you check in to know like, is that little voice, the right voice to listen to? Like, how do you, how do you know if you're not confident about your own intuition?
You know what I mean? How can any words on that about knowing intuition?
That's a tough one. And I told the, understand what you're saying for me, it was, I mean, it's going to sound like strange, but like, I felt like, like my, my true intuition versus like my fake intuition, my true intuition just was kinda like me. I'm feeling like, like kid in a candy store, kind of like super happy Saturday morning cartoons. Like just that excitement of just like, you know, having, I don't know how to explain it, but like that, that feeling accompanied my intuition when I was feeling a certain way when I was painting and it kind of transcended all my paintings and he could like, you know, are they going to sell? Like it was beyond all that. It was just this like inner child kind of feeling of freedom that I felt that I kept following.
And that was, that became my intuition intuitive voice. Cause I went through, the other thing is that I went through so many years prior convinced that I, like, I would tell people flat out, like, I'm not an artist I've worked with artists, but I'm on the business side. Like I really made a differentiation between being an artist and being somebody on the business side, within the record industry. And a lot of that was just like, I was following my wrong intuition and I dunno like one way led me to a very dark, depressed place. And the other led me to like complete freedom and like happiness. And so I chose that obviously, ultimately I ended up choosing the happiness one and that was following my intuition, but it's tough. It's like, that's part of living, you know, you got to like suss through what's, what's your real intuition.
And what's all that you're telling yourself. Just takes time, I guess,
Part of the journey. Yeah. Especially the artist's journey. Right? Yeah. I think we're all artists, just some choose to share that they're artists and some people are just, but we're all,
I think Picasso's that something about like, you know, everyone is born in Artist and this is like, somehow people stop trading as they get older. I guess they just think it's like, you know, look at any kid with like finger paint. Like that's like pure joy. And I dunno, like it just, yeah,
Yeah. Oh my God. You know, I like, I've been coining myself as like soccer. TCIs younger sister, cause like, like I'm a seeker and he says is his definition of a philosopher as a person. Who's a Lover wisdom, a seeker. But based on what you just told me, I mean, I might be Picasso's cousin because I think the same thing, like I think we're all born artists. We're all God's angels and we're all artists.
I think people that continue with it are, are very lucky regardless of, even if you have a successful career at externally, like financial need, like that's great. But I think like regardless of that, people that get to pursue their art, like has it been a big sacrifice to, you know, and it's like, I don't have like this amazing trust fund or some cushy job, you know? It's like, it's been a sacrifice in a lot of ways to pursue this, but it's been something that's, I've been willing to like, you know, for me, it's, it's well worth the sacrifice because when I'm painting, I feel like completely, it it's meditation for me. Like I feel completely at one in the universe and it's like a feeling that is just, I mean, like I can't put it in words. It just feels so right.
I mean, there's also pressure. Like, you know, when you have show, you got to make work for a show or certain collector, like, you know, deadlines. So it becomes like, you know, it, it is a job and it is work too, but on a, on a, on a pure, pure level, there's also this like amazing freedom and joy and meditation that comes from it.
Yeah. And like at the end of the day and the end of the life, it's like, you wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change it for anything else. I couldn't imagine changing it for anything else. And if I had the opportunity to think about it or do it, like it wouldn't be worth it. So it's, it's worth it. So I guess, I guess that's another thing people can look at when they're like, deciding if it's worth it, you know, if it's worth it, then you won't regret it. Right. Yeah,
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It'll be a sacrifice, worst naked worth making.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. On that note, we're over and out, and this is, has been an amazing conversation with Gabriel. You are awesome
As are you. Thank you so much again for this opportunity. So exciting.
Yeah, definitely. Definitely everyone follow Gabriel on the social media platforms and check out his website. There'll be in the show notes below, but go ahead and give a shout out to your Instagram and your website so everyone can see.
Yeah, it's true. My name is Gabriel J Shuldiner. So you can find me at Gabriel, J Shuldiner, S H U L D I N E r.com. And my Instagram handle is my full name. Gabriel J Shuldiner. Google me. You'll find me I'm out there.
Yeah. The Google is going to become the Google master pretty soon.
I want to be on Wikipedia. That's my goal for this year. Somehow get on Wikipedia.
I mean, let's, let's, let's have that happen within the next week
Or so.
Totally. All right. We're over it out on this episode. Thanks for tuning in share this episode immediately. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next time. Kyriaki, over and out.

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