VaynerNFT Creative Director and PhishFort Creative VP Jessica Greenwalt

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I have an amazing guest for you today. She inspires me. So I can only imagine how you're going to feel her. Name's Jessica Greenwall. Jessica, thank you so much for joining me on she's all over the place.
Thanks for having me.
Definitely. How are you?
I'm doing really well. Just hanging out here in Napa, California, having a good time.
Awesome. You're so lucky. Yay. And I can't wait for us to one day in the near future celebrate and go there together.
Girls trip.
Yes. Yes. Love that. So just a quick background. I was at art Basel and of T Basel in December and Jessica was on a women panel, bossing it up, lighting up the stage. It was full. Every moon was there. Hey layer was there all Brittany from the stacks audition. She's the executive director. This was just super impactful. I was high as a guy and I just ran up to Jessica and she was like, yeah, like follow me on Twitter. I'll follow you. And we just stay connected. And then, you know, we've been connected ever since. And then she was in San Diego at San Diego NFT and she was a speaker on a woman panel there.
And we were able to have IRL fun times together. So that was really, really cool. And then we were in New York and we went to a Basquiat exhibition and you know, we were empowering one another and having good times with other NFT artists, enthusiastic, yo, she invited like so many people, like she said, you're a producer and a boss and leads by example in such grace. And like there all these NFT artists who showed up at the Basquiat exhibit and we're all like talking and we just had so much in common. It was so much fun. Yeah.
Sorry to have you as part of the core crew now, too.
I love that. Yeah. Greek chic showing up. Okay. So Jessica is in tech. She's a boss she's been on, you know, a lot of magazines and magazines being honored on panels, speaking all over. She is the creative director for Vayner NFT. She's an entity strategist. She's a designer. She has her own company. It's called pixel Keith.
Yeah. It's like a pixelated Turkey. I'm kind of obsessed with
Birds. Oh
My goodness. Don't even get me started on my birds. I'm still sad. I don't know. I didn't make it on here. We'll see. We'll see.
It's going to happen. I already know, but I I'm rooting for you. I'm holding space, but yeah. So 1000. So I mean, I could, I could go on all day, but everyone can just look at the show notes and see your bio. But where are you from?
I was originally born in Seattle, Washington. I didn't live there long as a kid. I ended up moving around a lot, moved to Hawaii, did a little bit of grade school there, then moved to Southern California and have been working my way up the coast since. And finally, thanks to COVID ended right back up in Washington state.
Wow. Very cool. Very cool. And where did you go to school?
Oh, Cal poly San Luis Obispo. It was gorgeous there. Part of me wanted to live there forever and I have friends who stuck around and I, I could see why once you'd be there. You wouldn't want to go anywhere else, but I'm glad that I kind of branched out.
I hear it's beautiful. I have a friend from there who's invited me so many times before I knew what I know about how amazing it is. And I I'm still like not kicking myself and I'm like, man, I should have taken that opportunity all those times. But I mean, I didn't, but I, yeah, I hear it. I hear it's gorgeous. And then how did you get involved in tech? Like what were your interests innately as a child? What, what inspired you and moved you into the direction for being in tech and as a strategist?
My dad's an electrical engineer and he always just had really cool tech contraptions lying around the house. And he taught me how to work with circuit boards and build electronics. I think he really wanted me to have a broad knowledge brought out education to work with. So he put me in every sport and how me building these tools, drawing these diagrams and would take me over to his office with him sometimes. And I'd hang out there and learn from the folks there. So I feel like I just kind of grew up with tech around me all the time and, and with, you know, with my dad being in the industry, I it's like my default world. Right. It's it's the world. I know. I don't, I don't know a world where I'm not dealing with tech.
So it just a natural progression of growing up with having built and design and drawn tech devices my entire life.
Yeah. You're so lucky. And so blessed shout out to your dad. Yeah. Cause I mean with technology and the way the world is, I mean, and I mean, you're just made for webs three then, you know, in stem and technology, it's, you know, they've been saying for years wanting to onboard more females and tech to show them that it's cool and, and you were just naturally brought up in it. So that's a very interesting, and so diving in here, how did you pivot into web three?
Yeah, I, at the end of 2020, I decided I just, wasn't going to work with companies that were not doing something in crypto that didn't have a crypto strategy or they weren't working towards at least getting into the space by the end of that year. Because I, I like being on the cutting edge of things. I like working in this wild west environment and the tech scene, it's gotten pretty corporate and stable and, and for me that's not where the, the energy and excitement is and the opportunity to really make a difference is, and then the web three world, which I wasn't even calling it that at the time it was just crypto. Right. And in the crypto space, it's crazy right now, you know, it's like absolute chaos.
It's the wild west. People are going out there and just experimenting with everything and that's the world I like to be in. So I just had, I just drew like a hard line in the sand. I'm like end of 2020, if a company is not working in the crypto space, I'm not doing any work with them. So pixel QI transitioned fully into a product design research and UX UI firm specifically for crypto companies. And then I wanted to find the right people to learn from in the space so that I felt confident about my knowledge in, in the arena. So I put it out there to my friends in tech, like, Hey, I'm looking for the right person to learn everything about crypto.
Like who, who is that person? Who's the right person to be connected with there who's, you know, a good teacher who's patient who really, really knows the space on a, on another level. Who's like been in it from the beginning. And it turned out that this company called , they're the biggest cybersecurity company in the space. They are looking for a UX researcher. And so my friends connected me with the CEO and was like, Hey, you're looking for a UX researcher, just as a UX researcher who really, really wants to learn everything there is to know about crypto. And we met, we really hit it off. And Matt is the CEO of fish for it is like, look, we can't afford to pay you what you're getting at your other job as like an executive, a tech company.
And, you know, I just feel really bad making you an offer knowing that you can't even compete. And I told him, I was like, listen, I very much want to learn the space. And I was, you are the right person to learn from. You pay me whatever you can afford and teach me everything, you know? And that's, that's the deal and that's the deal we struck. And he, he has been so generous with his time with me and we've sat him for hours on end learning anything I could possibly want to walk through. Like, like screen-sharing walking through each step of the process on, on anything like different cryptocurrencies, different defy platforms, you name it.
Okay. So, so, and you've been working there at fish for, for how long now?
About a year
Now. Okay. Congratulations. And also I had to Google it. So the person who who's tuning in, what is a UX researcher stand for?
So user experience like you, you probably hear this term, like user interface designer, and then there's the user experience designer that goes even beyond the interface, like the whole, whole customer journey, right? Like everything that you experienced leading up to the point at which you're clicking on a button to buy something. And it can even be in the real physical world too. Like you, as an experienced designer, you can be designing how people flow through a space and an event, how people experience a concert, how people experience, you know, IRL slash digital gallery experience mashups.
So give an example of something that you find fascinating or something that you were a part of, something that you can share of like walk us through the initial intuitive hit, or if it was introduced or an idea that gave you. And then you went on the journey to be this researcher. How does, how does that look? Like what are the steps that Jessica would take?
How did I end up in UX? You know,
No, no, like how do you, how do you do that? Like how do you actually do that?
Okay, well, given the amount of time, like a lot of times you kind of have to do this on a very, very truncated schedule because everything's urgent, but if you have the time to do it, what you like to do, what's really nice to do is actually interview the customers that you're going to be serving with whatever experience you're putting together, whatever product you're building, start learning from them, from their personal experience and design around their needs. And let's like a lot of the startup companies that I've worked with in the past, we have this whole phase research phase. And sometimes that can take six months before you actually put together a plan of serving the people that you've learned, all this information about.
Okay, cool. Cool. Thanks for giving us some ideas in brushstrokes and then with the cybersecurity and fish for how can people participate and take action? Is it more on a global scale for an individual person or a company the involved or mean, cause obviously that's one of the biggest things. Cyber security and crypto.
Oh my goodness. It's the space is crazy right now. People are getting hacked left and right. There's all kinds of stuff popping up. And there's some really clever ones. There's some not so clever ones, but because the space to show new people are just like, oh yeah, obviously I have to connect my wallet to this site to do whatever, sign up for whatever it is they're getting out at that time. So unfortunately, a lot of people are losing a lot of money very quickly in the space. And that's why it's really important for us at fish, for it to be designing these tools, to help keep people safe. So one of the like lowest barrier to entry things you can do to stay safe is to download the fish, protect plugin and install it on whatever browser you're using. Because it's a, it's like a little icon that'll light up green.
If you are on the site that is on our trusted site list. So, you know, like there's a lot of people out there who will spoof an entire site. So you'll think like, oh, I just want to go to my exchange website. And then someone will have copied the entire look of that site, put it on a slightly different domain. So like, let's say you, you typed in coinbase.com. Maybe they just changed the oh to a zero. It looks like the same domain For all intents and purposes. You might think you're on the right spot. They might have even put up like a malicious ad on Google so that it's the first result there. And then you click on that, you connect your wallet, you can lose whatever you have in it. So if you have the protect plugin installed on your browser, it turns green to confirm that you were on the site that you think you're on.
Yeah. It's one of the first things to have people install when I'm helping onboard them into the crypto space.
I had no clue. So I'm totally going to do that. Thank you. I'll I'll have the link in the show notes, the official link in the show notes that people can click on. Wow. So yeah, definitely, you know, be very careful of, of clicking links. And even when you think it's the right link, you have to even double check and things move so fast, we move so fast. So you have to double think and double fast, you know, to be very protective in the space, you have to be very smart. It's a responsibility to, you know, for crypto,
Even if you're smart there, like you could be doing 50 things at once, which most everyone is doing at this point, we're all like all totally oversubscribed. Especially if you work in the space and you could be, you know, like answering someone on your phone on one side and then you're like, oh, I gotta go connect my wallet here. Like, and you're not always paying attention 100% of the time. So even people who really know their stuff can get scammed very easily.
Okay. So thank you for explaining all that before we move on from fish, for anything else, additional about fish for any hacks or things you've learned. I mean, there's probably so much, but anything that comes to mind about cybersecurity and, and things of that nature to support and help people who are listening, you know,
So I think a lot of people forget that everything you do on the blockchain is public record. So you might think that you are operating in an anonymous environment, but when it comes down to it, there's, there are a lot of actions that you take that can tie back to your identity. So just make sure that everything you're doing on this extremely public space that anyone can access at any time and look up the record of your transactions for are things that you are comfortable with the whole world knowing about.
Yeah. That's some deep pause and thoughts there. So everyone can think and feel and ponder what they will. But, well, yeah, that's good. We'll leave it there. Coolio. And then I'm scrolling right along planning for the longterm, with NFT programs. What does that mean? How does that look for you?
Yeah. So a lot of people, I think they might have this impression that you put together an NFC drop, which in itself is a huge production, right? Like if you, if you're doing it right, if you're collaborating with an artist or if you're the artist yourself, right. You're, you're probably drawing hundreds of assets and then you have to find the right generator or someone who can work with you to put those assets together. If you're doing a generative drop. Right. And then leading up to that, there's a whole marketing plan that you should have been setting in motion prior to your drop. There's the drop schedule and the war room that you put together with your developer, your whole team, and then there's the after marketing program. Right? So I think a lot of people think in their head, they see these news headlines like, oh, all these NFT sold 10,000 NFT sold out, generating, you know, let's call it $7 million in revenue in nine minutes, whatever.
And they think like, oh, all I have to do is draw some squiggles, release 10 thousands of them. And if I make it, they will come. Right. And that's, there's so much more work behind the scenes to get people aware of the project, interested in the project and then to maintain interest in that project ongoing that I think is not fully considered when people say they want to do an NFC drop, it's a lot of work. And it's a huge, it's an ongoing commitment if you're actually building for the future. Right? Like if you, I mean, of course you could do some, I don't know, one off drop that you abandoned later. And there are people who do that. They're not building a brand, they're not building an empire with.
Yeah, definitely. So that just ties into strategy and some tips with strategy and what people's intentions are for the longterm or, you know, so how do you protect yourself from malicious actors?
Well, I mean, install, the fish port plugin would be the first thing I tell you to do. And the space is evolving pretty quickly right now. Unfortunately, a lot of programs, a lot of NFT collections that are trying to reward you for being holders, that they ask you to connect your wallet to a site, to sign up, to receive your bonus item or to get your bonus airdrop, whatever, right? Like it involves you connecting your wallet with this potentially extremely valuable asset in it. And hoping that it all goes well and that you can sign up and get, get whatever you're supposed to get for holding that, like the whole thing stresses me out, right?
Like the, when people design programs or they're like, okay, if you have a board ape, we'll give you XYZ. All you have to do is connect your wallet with your boarding. That's like a, you know, potentially $200,000 asset at, at minimum, you're asking someone to claim. I dunno, whatever it is, you're, you're throwing their way. I think we're going to start moving into a future where there will be better ways to verify your ownership. That don't involve you connecting a wallet with the actual massively valuable asset in it. Don't click on links in discord. Like don't click on like, even, even on Twitter or Instagram, like the entire popular collection accounts have been hacked and taken over and have ended up losing collectors a lot of money.
So right now I'm like hyper conservative. I, I don't click on anything unless it's sent directly from the person who's running the collection or a friend of mine who absolutely knows what they're doing. And even then I'm like triple checking it. I have my fish port plugging on. And
After that moon birds, you know, all of a sudden I had like over 75 moon bird accounts saying, oh yeah, like allow lists. I'm like, yo, this, this I'm like, I know what's up with members, but most people don't. So, so like I had to block so many, but even when you think, like you said, it's a friend or something, you don't know if their account got hacked, you know, you don't know like, so then, you know, there's like these giveaways and sometimes I've probably like tagged you like tattoo friends, you know? And it's like the communities, I know other trusted community. So I'll, you know, I'll, I'll participate in those ones to like retweet and tag two friends and it's interactive and fun. But because it was happening with all the bots in the last couple of weeks, like, I'm like, oh my God, what if my friends think I'm spamming them?
How are they going to know that's me like writing to them? Or, or they might know it's I don't know. There's so, so like you said, the wild, wild west, which we don't know which we love, but also you gotta be like, super careful about it. All
We'll verify everything. Like I'll call up a friend. If it's, if it's their job, I'll be like, Hey, is this absolutely the place I'm supposed to be at right now? Is this the right lane? Like, I'm clicking on it. I'm looking at the site right now. I need my hand held during the entire process. Now I'm just nervous about all of it.
Yeah. And then do you have a hard wallet too? Yeah,
I have, I have a Trezor and a ledger.
Okay, cool. And then, so shifting into your creative director at Vayner NFT, how long have you been there?
Since November.
November. Okay, cool. Congratulations.
Thanks. It's a new organization it's growing rapidly and it is by far the healthiest work environment I've ever had. The pleasure of being a Bardo.
How exciting, how exciting is you total tech, your upbringing one year fish for then you pivot into like this fun plays. I've been a big fan of Gary V sends a 2018, his energy, his vibe, like super cool, like boss, like, you know, like loves hip hop music, obsessed. And then, you know, like the person who's like an amazing entrepreneurial person. And so to hear how fun it is to work there is just so cool. And what does that look like for you? Like what do you do as a creative director at Vayner NST?
I do a lot. It's a lot of fun actually. So brands will come to us and they'll say, we want to get into web three. We want to design an NFT program. We want to get into the metaverse, right? Like they have all these grand ideas of how, where they want to end up. Right. Or maybe they don't have an idea at all. They just know that they want to do something in the space. And so they talk to us and sometimes they, they're not even fully aware of what's possible or fully understand crypto. In which case we actually will educate them. Well, we have these educational programs that we can put them through. And then once they have an understanding of the space, then we can start collaborating on what a really cool NFC program would look like for them and where that NFP program leads.
Right? Like we'll design a whole behind the scenes roadmap of what ownership of that entity will mean for their collectors. What cool activations we can do around that in real life and digitally, what other kinds of collaborations and artists we can rope in to work with them. And the social impact that we can have with the NFC drops that we put together for these brands. A lot of the brands we work with, they want to do good things with their projects. And it's, it's super refreshing to hear about and then be involved with, because I think prior to working here, I had this impression that, oh, you know, like fortune 500 companies, they're these big faceless organizations and they're just out for themselves. And, and then you meet the actual people behind the, the teams within those organizations.
And then they, they say things like, we really want to support and elevate women in the space, or we want to highlight and celebrate women in athletics or underrepresented youth. Like the, like, they all have these really lofty goals and things that they want to do with their marketing dollars. But it's so comforting to hear.
And then, so, I mean, this could go in so many different directions because you get these ideas and pitches that come your way. And then if it's, you're going to onboard and create and work with them or not, but are there other peoples on the team and, or it's like, this is the assignment, or do you get to choose like, yeah, like I totally want to develop this and work with this project. Or like, no, I'm not into this kind of vibe. Just you're assigned to it. And then it can be someone else within the company. So how is that working like as a creative team for you? You know,
There, there have clients that I've, I've initially thought like, oh, that's not, it's not really my vibe. Like I don't, I can't imagine working with that organization. And then they'll totally surprise me a little, they'll want to do something that is just so heartfelt and touching and it'll be like, wow, I, I it's an honor to work with you. I had no idea that there were a lot of brands that have completely transformed my view of them through working with them at Vayner.
Great, wonderful. That's how we can all learn and grow together. That's so cool. Are you allowed to chat about what you're working on now?
Only when things are released and out there in the public, then, you know, I try not to talk about like the projects and anything even that are out I'm, I'm S I'm so used to not being allowed to talk about what I do as a UX researcher. A lot of the things I've done over the past two decades of my life in tech have been very strictly under NDA.
So guess what? You know, I have a lot of people who are in arts and entertainment who like tune into the podcast. And I do voiceovers every single day. And I am signing NDAs all the time. A lot of times and projects I've worked on you, even after you worked on them, you can't talk about them. You just let to like,
Yeah, like it's out there. Like everyone knows. They recognize your voice. And then you as an individual, can't be like, oh yeah, that's me. I did that.
Yeah. Like there are certain companies that we can't name where it's like, you sign it. You can't even say the company name. Like, he, you can't even tell the store, it's a tech company and you can't even talk about it afterwards. And it's like, you know what I mean? It's like, when you're so proud and there are people out there like, oh, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this. And it's like, it's you can't and you want to be excited. But I mean, you know, I, I get it, but yeah. So I, I understand how you
So super excited about everything I get to work on. Like, I wouldn't work on it if I didn't find it fascinating or fun to do, but you'll notice, like if you go to pixel, pete.com, if you go to the website, there is no work present, and you can't even reach because it is,
I went there before. It's very minimal. It's very minimal.
Like there's no information on there. And you have to know someone to even get ahold of us. Like it it's by referral only
Got it. Yeah. Let's talk a little to the socks because when we were York together, you get to me these cute little socks that you made in design. Let's talk about those.
Oh my goodness. So, you know, I'm obsessed with birds. My company's named after a pixelated parakeet and they logo is originally designed after this parakeet. I had named Pico the socks that he gave you, those are pixelated versions of parakeets that have been in my life. They're all dead now. Unfortunately, that's why I told you like this, a pattern of dead parakeets, but there's my baby parakeet. And then I had this Rosie barks, parakeet named Perry, Ruby. And then the there's SEO is SEO, Berta, Tori. That's a, that's a Assassin's joke for anyone who played that game. And then there's a, a friend of mine's parakeet on there also deceased. So you have a, you have a pattern sock of dead parakeets.
I hope you enjoy that.
Thank you. I really, I do. It's just, it really warmed my heart. It's just, it's so special. It just, just to receive the gift, you know, and, and from a divine feminine energy, and then you made them, it's like, wow, I just, it really touches me. It's very inspirational. Moves me. Thank you. And so, in addition to being in tech and a researcher and a strategist, you are very much as a designer, an artist yourself and gratefully, you and me were in the same exhibition with hay layer for in March. It was a women empowerment collaboration. And let's talk about your NFTE specifically that you made it so beautiful, very Royal. And let's talk about that. A NFT collaboration, a bit
Love, first of all, I love Hey layer. So shout out to them. They are amazing, their whole, team's just wonderful. And I love what they're doing for the entity community and for artists. So I was super excited when they reached out to me and asked if I'd be one of the 20 women from around the world to participate in their art show, their inaugural art show on their platform. And the piece that I created for it is called the queen of coins. It's based on the queen of coins, taro card from your standard weight rider deck. And it incorporates there's a you've seen it. So, you know what I'm talking about, we might have just have for people who are just listening to this, but it has binary in the background of the card.
And that is a translation from the passage in the Bible about the one world currency. But some people believe that Bitcoin is on its way to becoming. So I took that passage, converted to binary, dropped in the back that card. And then the actual token, there's a, there's a Bitcoin token in the middle of the card and written in binary on that card. It says one world currency on that card. So there's a couple of other taro symbols in it. And it's, it's a lot of fun to show people that card up close on. You blown up on a big screen for museums and galleries. Cause there's an on its surface. It looks like pretty simple vector art illustration. And then when you actually get to see the detail, there's just layers of layers of symbolism in it.
Beautiful. Thank you for sharing. And I'll definitely have it in the show notes. Everyone can see it. Yeah. Shout out to halo. I love them
Two full screens of destiny subs, which was a, which is a PFP collection that I put together in time to release for the Seattle entity, museums, pioneering women in NFCS exhibit. And that was a shit ton of work. I was pretty exhausted by the end of it. And then they didn't tell me that they were going to have me get up and speak in front of all these people at opening night. And I just heard them announce my name while I was like running around the gallery. And they're like, Jessica, where's Jessica. And then next thing I know I have to go like on very little sleep. The, the art that I, I submitted to show in their museum. So yeah, it does need stuff.
PFE project that ate my whole life for about two weeks. And I'm really, really glad it got done. Everyone loves it. It was like the, the response to it has been phenomenal. It's the first Stax collection to appear in a museum and the founder of stacks and empty himself was the one who mentored the collection for me. And he actually, or the opening night to see it in the museum, which was really cool. His name's
I found out about them from you. And then I looked him up and they were following me. So then I went to their Instagram. I followed them back and I saw the gentleman. You just mentioned that he was the founder of it. And then was this one PFP or how many were minted from the destiny? Seb?
My goal was to do 40 in time for the museum. I think I did around 53 at some point, you know, I was exhausted. Also got a bit addicted to making them it's fun. Like once you get on a roll, you're just like, okay, I've made enough traits so that I can assemble this other one. I can assemble this one, you know? And then, and then like a couple of my friends wanted their original PFPs typified is what I call it. Cause I basically, I took these like very serious PFPs and made cute fat baby versions of them. So it's work, right? Like you have to illustrate each trait in a new style and then assemble them so that you get this like new version of the original PFP.
But once you create enough the traits, then you can start to assemble other, other pieces in the collection. And, and then I just got on a roll and I was just making them at this point, I've still been making them for requests, requested them or like for friends or like I've, I've started typifying other collections like world of women and stacks, parrots and stuff like that. So I'm like slowly chipping away at the, a list of NFTs that I said, I would ship a five for friends slowly but surely mincing them out and then gifting them to people. That's the big thing about the collection. You can't meet them at all. You can't meet any of these chippies. You have to receive them as a gift.
Got it. Love that. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Thanks for sharing. How cute? Oh my gosh. I don't want to overwhelm you because you're doing so much, but think of me. I want one
By a PFP for you. You're just going to have to wait. That's all. There's just a line.
Oh, trust me. You are worth it. It is worth it. 1000, 1000. I'm not going anywhere. I'm here for the long game, the term, so cool. Cool. I love that. And so, as you know, the process as an artist, where are you making me?
Oh, Adobe. Illustrator's my program of choice sometimes. You know, like if I'm just out and about running around, I'll use the iPad and the Adobe illustrator version for the iPad and I'll click around and add some colors. But anytime I need to like snap objects to a grid, I've got to do it on my computer. I just haven't found a, a good groove with trying to be exact on the iPad version of illustrator this past weekend. Cause I was putting together, I was commissioned by stacks on a T, which is now called gamma. They just released their rebrand today and produce three pieces for their new art show under the new brand.
And they're the pieces that I created are they're super exact they're geometric. And I couldn't for the life of me, get the iPad to, to put the lines exactly where I needed them to be based on the math that I was using to arrange the shapes on this tile.
Yeah. I mean, you travel a lot too. So then, you know, sometimes when you're feeling the moment of wanting to do what you need to do, I'm sure as an artist, as a human, it can be frustrating, you know? So you have to like take mental notes or just like shapeshift in the best way possible to stay in flow and be able to create, because you know, as artists, our vessels, we just look traveling is so adventurous and that's so much culture, but there's that thing it's like, you know, we need to create just to feel alive. Like we need to create and just, we have so much going on and you know, there's so much to birth and, and get out. So cool. Thank you for sharing that.
I didn't think I know how to not create things anymore. Like a it's like breathing oxygen for me. If I'm not making something, I feel kind of like I'm dying and I don't know if that's like a, a good thing or a bad thing. I don't know if it's an addiction to addiction, to productivity or to achievement that I need to take a closer look at. But in the meantime it results in me producing a lot of art.
Yeah. Well, I mean to be extreme, you know, to go off the cliff. I mean, I mean, sometimes I'll just feel worthless if I'm not creating. Like, if I'm like, what did I just do? Like, I don't watch TV. I stream, I watch intently movies, animation shows, but I'm not like, you know, I'm not like sitting there like watching TV. Like I, not that there's anything wrong with it just for me personally, I just, when I do something that I'm like, what did I just do? Like, like I was not writing a poem, creating, doing something, adding value, blabbing away on a podcast. Like, look, I just need to be an action creating. Or also sometimes I'll feel that feeling. You know?
I think you just hit it right on the head. The part about adding value. I feel like I have to constantly be adding value or I'm not worth the space for resources. I take up in the world. I mean, I'm smiling. As I say that, I don't feel like I have a confidence problem. But the, the fact that I think that at all makes me feel like I should take closer, look at why I'm feeling that way.
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's something to ponder and lean into in a healthy way to so definitely holding space for you for that. Yeah. Yeah. For
Sure. For a lot of creators have that anxiety around creation. Like if they, if they're not creating something, I wonder if it feels as anxiety inducing as it does for me, if it feels like they're not like they're doing something wrong because they're not creating, I wonder how amongst artists, you're an artist and you feel this level of anxiety when you're not creating.
I wonder
If that's what's the board like there's, there's something, something up with creatives where we were just born with this condition of feeling like we need to produce things and having this inherent drive to do it. Otherwise, we feel like there's this void in our lives or we're not contributing like we're supposed to or something like that
Because we are the purpose of creation of us being here on this planet is to create, it's not an expectation of the outcome of the ego, of how it's supposed to look it's to burst and create and to explore. So the stuff we're talking about is exactly what the season is about. It's exploring the curiosity of that. So I think it's, I think it's beautiful to ponder and just explore,
You know, on top of that, like when I'm done with a piece, like I worked all weekend on, on the pieces for Gamma's art show and I was really in it. And then as soon as it's done, I didn't even give myself the time to celebrate being done with it. It was just like off to the next thing already. You know, there's already so many other things going on.
Oh, wow. Yeah. I know what you mean. I've done that vigorously so many times and then I, I, yeah, but I had to reflect and teach myself to practice along the way of transitions. One of, even if it's for an ice cream or going to buy like a new lipstick or going for a walk, like making sure, I honor the self moments of getting a massage or just sleeping, whatever, just to make sure I'm gifting my self, that short-term gratification instead of onto the next, and then being mindful if I do onto the next to make sure if I have to do the other project or even after that, the next project that I'm, then I'm like, okay, I'm going to take some time to celebrate the last three wins.
Right. So we get to honor ourselves along the way, because if we don't pull ourselves up, who's going to pull us up. I mean, people can only pull us up so much. Right. And then we get to honor self and an honor and celebrate ourselves along the way. And it's, you know, it's important for specifically the season that we talk and honor that so we can make sure we're not shaming and blaming and stuffing that stuff down so it can come out because we're vessels that need to clear, you know, and it can be through the art, you know, whatever it is, maybe the clearing is through the art, but then there's that honoring process as well, which is really important.
Yeah. I'm with you. I got to learn to celebrate the wins and accomplishments more
Well you're in Napa. So I, I, I don't know if you drink red wine or whatever, but you can maybe, or just go to a vineyard and admire the one of the vineyards. I mean, that sounds like a great celebration.
It's not like I don't celebrate, don't get me wrong. It's just that I don't feel like I, I celebrate specifically having gotten something done, like producing three art pieces, especially at the level of detail that I just did last week. That was hard work. I should've stopped at the end of the, under the end of that and been like, Hey, nice, nice job. Like pat myself on the back for that. But I frankly it's, it didn't even cross my mind to be proud of myself for having done it. Like, I'm, I'm excited that I got to do it. And I'm grateful that they reached out to me to incorporate me in the show and then I love everything about it. I just never took the time to congratulate myself for finishing those art pieces. And like, yeah, I'm proud of myself.
I got that shit done. It was on a really tight deadline. And on top of that, you know, like two full-time jobs. So
Yeah, I'm honoring you and celebrating you. And it's a part of you being on the show to honor your journey thus far and celebrate you, your spirit, your being. So to share that news here, we're just making it an honorary moment, a ripple effect. And it's awesome that you bring that up because in my mind, it's like, Hmm, okay, well, I dunno, how are you are on this, but maybe I can send you a gratitude journal. And so it'll be special moments for you to remember that when you're done doing a project, even if it's a half a page or one page or 10 pages to take that time for that gratitude journal for south. So start making that because you just said it. And so that's, that's the first step of being aware of being aware and then practicing and taking the steps.
And then when it's none or a little, then all of a sudden it'll be wide and far a year from now. You're like, yo, I'm selling braiding myself all day, every other, every other day. There you go, Rosie all day on a yacht in the south of France.
What's your general thing. I, and it was a nice habit when I had it. I was always very happy about it. I dunno. I just kind of fell out of the habit of it.
Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, since I got to my mom and dad's, I found three journals and I, my mom eat my mom out of all people suggested like, oh yeah. Why don't you do some writing? I did the next day I wrote six pages. And then a couple of days when, and I wrote 11 pages and now we're talking about it. So I'm probably maybe going to journal this evening, you know? So it's remembering to remember
Yeah. Like making the space for it, for sure. I got to get better.
Yeah. Well, I appreciate you being vulnerable and saying that and putting it out there, and that shows how powerful you are to be able to share that. So, you know, we're honing in here for, you know, your younger self that's listening to this when you were, you know, 11 or, you know, something along the way. I don't know if you ever felt isolated, but I know, I sure did. And I was a sponge wanting to soak up so much knowledge and we're in different times of then and where we are now, are there some tips, hacks, a Booker to people you like to read inspiration, any of sorts that you would share with people so they can tune in?
Well, first of all, a younger me was so stubborn and so sure of herself, she wouldn't listen to any advice older me would go back and give her if, if I had the opportunity to do that, something I do wish that I did more in my youth was make the effort to interact with people more. I, I found, I, you know, talk about being isolated. I felt isolated all the time because I didn't feel like I related to anyone I knew. And I just thought like, maybe, you know, initially I was just like, oh, everyone's, everyone's stupid. You know, like what, what a kid would think, right? Like, oh, it's just, it's everyone else. Right. And then as I got older, I started to think, well, maybe, maybe it's just me.
Maybe I just don't fit in to this world. Right. Like, I, I, I don't make sense here. I'm, I'm the weird one. I'm the odd one out. I'm the one who doesn't like interacting with most people. I don't, I don't like most people, you know, as a, as a kid. And then now like much older me has w you know, once I got to college, I finally feel like I started to meet people that I was excited about. Like people who I felt like belonged in, in my, my group. Right. Like that I could identify with. And I understood. And then as, as I've gotten to travel more and meet more people, I'm like, okay, I'm not, I'm not alone at all. I just, wasn't in the environments where I felt like I was meeting people that I understood.
Right? Like, and then once I got to San Francisco, Silicon valley back in years ago, when it was like the place to be as a creative and tech nerd, then I felt like, oh my goodness. I found my place in the world, everyone there. I just, I totally understood. I was on the same wavelength with, and there were so many artists and, and also people who are just building things like intangible things. You have the, the artists who are building real physical sculptures and robots and LEDs and fire contraptions that are breathing fire and all this crazy stuff. And then you have like the tech nerds who are building things that impact a lot of people, but you don't actually get to see, and then being in a space where those two worlds collide so that they can collaborate and work on things together.
It was magical. This bay area back in the day was incredible. It was like this epicenter of energy and creativity and art. And when that started to die out, I was, I felt so much anxiety because I was like, oh my goodness. I finally found my place in the world. And now that place is ceasing to exist. It doesn't have this.
Oh,
I want to say it was like five years ago. I started to feel maybe five or seven years ago. Now I started to feel like this place doesn't have the same energy it had for me when I first moved there. And as a kid who felt like I, I didn't relate to anyone for a long time and feeling like I finally found my place in the world to see my place in the world, start to disappear or disintegrate. It's, it's a terrifying feeling. So I went on this journey around the world to try to find like that energy again, to see if I could find, you know, my community again, if you will. And didn't really find exactly that same energy. I think that was like a moment in time, a special place and meeting of the minds.
But there are, there are other energies that I like now on that, I, I also feel like I've become more accepting of a broader range of behaviors and personality types. And I'm more adaptable to, and I, I just like more people than I did growing up. So younger me, if I could have convinced younger me to do something, it would have been to be more patient with people and be more curious about them and get to know them and try to learn how to interact with people. Even if you don't feel like you relate to them, because life is all about building relationships. It's all about your human interaction. You can't make as much of an impact on the world.
If you are out working on your own, you can go so much further. You can do so much more good if you actually get other people involved in what you're doing.
Oh, wow. Beautiful. There are so many beautiful nuggets in sharing. And thank you for that. I really, really am moved to move to tears. And my soul is crying deeply. I feel you. I feel you it's so, so important. Yeah. To, to reach out and not, not be stubborn and cut ourselves off from ourselves. I mean, there was this book I read, I think it was David Elliott lives in Santa Monica. And he has, he has this one book, but he was talking about like, there's like the us. And then when we're stubborn, w the, the very first thing, when we're stubborn, we cut ourselves off from love. Right. So we cut ourselves off from the love. So last, you were able to grow through that at a younger age though, and identify,
And it wasn't at a younger age. I don't think I really felt as comfortable as I do around people now, until I got into my thirties, it was a very recent thing for me, like younger, me, me and my twenties would probably not have been as social. Like when you and I met again at San Diego NFT conference, I would have probably just didn't sleep well, a quarter in, on my laptop or playing a video game, you know, like that that's, that's younger me, like knew me. Obviously we, we talked and we hung out out, you know, like, this is, this is a newer development. This is like something that just happened in my thirties.
Oh yeah. I'm going to be like your PR girl, because for me, you're this butterfly social butterfly. You are the queen of crypto. You know what I mean? Like coin that like queen of crypto, social butterfly, queening around, you know, like, you know what I've seen and, you know, in brushstrokes, not, but everyone's just like loving you, you know? So I'm glad you're able to receive that and be more in your power. You're just starting to bloom and the best is yet to come. And this is just the beginning of many for you. So I'm excited to be your friend and be a part of it and witness it.
I'm, I'm excited to be friends with you too. It's like, I'm really grateful that we got to connect in so many levels, like getting to meet in Miami, being in the same art show, getting to see you again in San Diego. Not con like any New York. Yeah.
Yeah. We were just talking about Basquiat. And then, then just a few days prior in, on the west coast, and then a couple of days later, there's the Basquiat exhibition. We're on the east coast, like bosses bossing around. Yeah. Let's close out LA maybe one or two books that you recommend
Books that I recommend. I'm a huge fan of. And I, I realize this is like, I feel like everyone's rent this book at this point, but I'm still a huge fan of it. The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, it's such a nice, simple, beautiful, elegant story that takes you on a journey and makes you, I want to say it makes you appreciate what you have makes you stop and think about appreciating what you have now and realizing that could be the thing that you're searching for all along.
Oh, so beautiful. Jessica Greenwall. Thank you so much for joining me on she's all over the place. It's been such an honor having you here.
It's an honor to be here. Thank you for having me.
Definitely, definitely. Okay, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you're not subscribing, please subscribe. Listen, take notes, share this with everyone. Drop some love with Jessica. How can people find you
Twitter? That's the best place to reach out to me? You could just hit me up publicly. I try to be as responsive as possible. It's just, Greenwalt J E S S G R E N w a L T.
And it'll be in the show notes and we'll see you next week.
Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next time. Gover and out.