First and foremost, I would like to say thank you so much. We are now in the top 1.5% out of all podcasts out of over almost 3 million podcasts. We're now in the 1.5% and it's because of you tuning in. Thank you so much. Make sure you're subscribing, make sure to share this episode. It's really impactful and important topic, and we're just going to dive right in today.
Katie Chonacas
00:00:47
I have India Thusi, and guess what? She is a law professor. This is my very first time having a law professor on the episode of she's all over the place podcast. And we're going to chat about feminism law, human rights, sex work. We haven't really talked about some of these things on the podcast before, and that's what the women empowerment podcast is all about. Exploring divine femininity in all genders and talking about things that maybe aren't talked about on certain platforms. And so I'm here to shed light hold space and give the mic to India. Thank you so much for joining me, India.
India Thusi
00:01:23
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited about our conversation today.
Katie Chonacas
00:01:27
Me too. Okay. So nuts and bolts roots. Where are you from?
India Thusi
00:01:33
I'm actually from New York. So I grew up in Yonkers, New York. Well, I was born in Nigeria immigrated here when I was a few weeks old, spent most of my life or at least my young childhood in New York and Yonkers lives in the Bronx a little bit and in Harlem, but that uptown kind of New York city areas is where I'm from.
Katie Chonacas
00:01:54
Dope, dope, love New York. Cool. I think you're the first person who was birthed in Nigeria on the podcast as well. So this is going to be a first of many on this special episode. Tell us about your education and what inspired you to go into law?
India Thusi
00:02:12
Yeah, I, you know, I wanted to be a lawyer since I was very young. I don't know why I I'm pretty sure I didn't know what a lawyer did or was, but I remember my uncle asking me when I was like eight years old, what I wanted to be. And I said a lawyer and he asked me if I liked to argue. And I said, no, of course, and said, I didn't think that's what lawyers did, but I, I think I've always been interested in just representing, you know, justice and fairness and helping people is really just something I've been interested in. And I think that's why I wanted to do the law. And in high school I interned at a court and did different things, you know, connected to that.
India Thusi
00:02:54
I was part of a mock trial team. And then in college I actually studied creative writing and anthropology, and I chose those subjects because I wanted to develop my writing skills and I'm still, you know, pretty creative person and anthropology, just understanding how the world operated culture and kind of thinking about the law from a kind of high level. And so like how the law is being operationalized. So how people are experiencing it, different aspects of our system. And then, you know, after I graduated from college, I went to law school and, you know, did different work for human rights organizations and civil rights organizations.
India Thusi
00:03:37
But I was always interested in law and just had, I guess, you know, had a different kind of perspective on how to become a lawyer than others in terms of still thinking about cultural issues, thinking about ways to be creative, but still grounded in, you know, the legal system.
Katie Chonacas
00:03:53
Yeah. And then where did you go to school?
India Thusi
00:03:55
So I went to Emory university for my undergrad and that's where I got my BA in anthropology and creative writing. Then I went to law school at Fordham law school in New York. And then after law school, I got my PhD in social anthropology and law society.
Katie Chonacas
00:04:12
Very cool. And I know sidebar, I asked if you were into crypto web three, not yet. And I know a lot of people in the space definitely need more lawyers in this space. So I'm really excited to introduce you to a bunch of people. I think you're going to be a valuable asset and you being a creative yourself. I think, you know, it'd be really cool to have that like tech LA, like artists vibe. And I mean, everyone who's tuning in right now, you're not seeing the video that I'm seeing, but India has this amazing palette of pink hair with these pastel pink glasses on. So she's such CSO. Cool. And she's such an artist, so that's really, really, really exciting. And she's gorgeous.
Katie Chonacas
00:04:51
So thank you for sharing. And then what kind of law are you practicing right now?
India Thusi
00:04:56
So right now I teach law and so I teach criminal law, criminal procedure. I also teach critical race theory and regulation of vice. And so basically my focus has been on, you know, helping to create the next generation of lawyers. And, you know, a lot of my students go into all different aspects of the law, but now I've been focused on really teaching them about know criminal justice policies, ways to improve the law ways to improve the system as well as, you know, how we regulate different vices and how we can rethink that. And we examined that.
Katie Chonacas
00:05:32
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And where are you teaching?
India Thusi
00:05:36
I teach at Indiana university Mauer school of law. So that's based in Bloomington, Indiana.
Katie Chonacas
00:05:44
And then the other school you mentioned before, and it's one of the very first schools, which when is that one?
India Thusi
00:05:53
Yeah, so I am also a senior scientist for research Institute called the Kinsey Institute. And the Kinsey Institute was started by Alfred Kinsey, who was a sexologist, one of the leading sexologists. And he focused on, he actually published this manuscript, ended up being quite famous about the spectrum of sexuality that we all exist on. Right. So why aren't you, his research, you know, the common understanding was that you're either, you know, gay or straight and, you know, all normal sex happened in, you know, heterosexual marriage and, you know, that was pretty much it. And he really pushed back against that challenge, that and found that there were actually more on a spectrum.
India Thusi
00:06:34
Like it's not just, you know, you're either gay or straight and that there's all sorts of types of, you know, sacks and sexualities that exist in society. And I think his research has proven pretty, not only credible, but you know, really valuable to how we think about sexuality. And so I do research focused on like sex work and also sexuality and online forms of sexual expression. And so I'm the only lawyer does actually base at the Kinsey Institute.
Katie Chonacas
00:07:01
I love all that. My mind is going in so many different directions. And I mean, just because it's something that's, I mean, so many things are coming, but one thing that's popping off is like only fans, right? Like, I mean the only fan thing. So I don't know if you want to talk about that a bit, but I knew about it for a while. Like there have been some people who really don't know me know me, but they like see me from the internet and, you know, they've like met me and they've said to me, you know, in their own thought like, oh, like you should have an only fans account and only fans isn't just for, you know, what we think only fans is for. And, you know, like as an entrepreneur, I always want to be open to opportunities like, you know, Patrion and like earning money for my podcast or earning money for this, like an, a musician artist, like behind the scenes, like, oh, it's like a pre day thing that you could have.
Katie Chonacas
00:07:51
And it's not just one thing. Obviously the reputation is what it is. And maybe you could identify what you think the reputation is of only fans. But first I want to give a short story. I went to the Twitter, well, what happened was I was scrolling because of Coachella. There were like all these popular influencers, popular musicians, like blue check verified and like, you know, like young hot. And it's like, a lot of them were like posing with these like gorgeous people. And like, you click on their profile and it's only fans and you click on their profile and they're represented by an influencer company and it's only fans and they have all these followers and I'm like, yo, am I doing something wrong?
Katie Chonacas
00:08:32
Like, am I'm young, I'm gorgeous leg. They're on these only fans. Like they're making money. Like, am I, am I doing something off here because maybe I should listen, listen to the people who said, maybe I should have an only fans account. Like I'm not gonna, you know, go against my ethics and morals and values and do certain things of that nature of porn or anything like that. That's not me. But if they can see behind the scenes of like, think photos may be exclusive photos or things about the podcast or whatever. So I just started going on the Twitter just a few nights ago and only fans was trending only fans and only, only fan girls. And I scroll not for long, I jumped off because I was like, whoa. I was like, sincerely so sensitive. I'm like, yo. And I felt very sad for humanity.
Katie Chonacas
00:09:13
I felt so sad seeing these visuals of these, you know, divine, feminine, you know, female identifying people or not doing these poses and doing things that, I mean, that's what they want to do. Cool. But like, I'm not judging anyone, but I just felt like disheartened by like our feminism and our body and everyone can do what they want, but there was just something about it that just was kind of revolting and very sad to dumb ourselves down to such a level to do certain things. And maybe it's not wrong, but I was just, anyways, I was exploring and I just jumped off quick and I did like a little tweet and I'm just like, yo, I feel like, like, I feel like I'm, it's way out of my league. And I feel like I've been in a cocoon for the last decade.
Katie Chonacas
00:09:54
Like once you feel like you're on top of it, you know, things in life, and this is on a broader spectrum, but then like you feel like, do you ever feel like you like wake up? And you're like, whoa, like the whole world's changed or like I was so advanced and now I'm so behind, like, what's going on. So maybe with sex trafficking and law, maybe you're aware of some of these subjects of like only fans and, and things of that nature. And, you know, someone who could be tuning in the ethics of about something like only fans and justice and things. Do you have any comments, concerns, thoughts about anything that I mentioned? Yeah.
India Thusi
00:10:26
I have, I have a lot of thoughts about it with only fans in particular. And so with only fans, as you mentioned, there are a lot of different ways to use it, right? I think a lot of the focus is on the sexually explicit content, but people use it for all sorts of things. And there may be ways to, you know, build a connection with the audience on only fans. I think, you know, for all the content there is really about creating the sense of intimacy with people who are interested in following you, right? And people do that in a lot of different ways. It could be private conversations, it could be shown them behind the scenes. As you mentioned, it could be just giving them access where there's this sense of, you know, they are getting to know the authentic you.
India Thusi
00:11:08
And I think there's a real, you know, where we are as a cultural moment in society, there is this real value that people place on authenticity by feeling like I'm getting to know this person as they really are. I'm getting to know them, know the real self as opposed to the self they put out in public or in these really polished types of forms of content. And so I think that's what the only fans is about. And so we see that in the sexual explicit arena, in terms of people, you know, developing relationships with these audiences and give them access to different types of materials a lot, sometimes it's pornographic materials. But in terms of like some of the current concerns you might have with only fans, it's really interesting because when you find it only fans is that some people who would ordinarily just being engaging in ordinary sex work are now on only fans.
India Thusi
00:11:59
And what they've said is that actually only fans has given them a platform to engage in sex work with out some of the harms of traditional forms of sex work that they were engaging in previously. And I think where we saw this real explosion in the use of only bands was at the beginning of the pandemic, where there was this concern around, you know, in-person contents, you know, there were restrictions and a lot of communities in terms of curfews or people being able to see each other in person. And so people went on to these online platforms and use that as a way to engage in different forms of sexual conduct that happens online. And so, you know, for some people, it actually provided a safer environment for them where they were able to engage in this without some of the harms that come with, you know, in-person content.
India Thusi
00:12:46
And then also being able to screen out their clients. Now, one concern that, you know, some feminists have raised is that, you know, maybe this is just another form of sex trafficking, maybe, you know, people aren't, you know, engaging in this in a voluntary way. How are the issue with what that argument is that actually, you know, alumni, the people who are producing content on only fans have stated that in fact, they were engaged in other forms of sex work, and this has provided them an avenue to do so in a more safe environment, in a virtual environment, and to do so in a way where maybe they're even able to like screen the individuals that they're interacting with. Right. And so it has provided some opportunities for people. And, you know, especially during this time where, you know, certain individuals were really in a precarious situation, not everyone was able to get access to sinless money.
India Thusi
00:13:34
Let's say, if you don't have no proper documentation of the, you know, the type of work you're engaging in previously, you know, you may have found yourself in, in a situation where you weren't able to really provide for yourself, you know, during the, especially the early parts of the pandemic. And so some people were actually able to provide for themselves and actually earn a living that they were otherwise not able to earn, but you know, honestly only fans or using at least relying on like sexually explicit content or producing sexually explicit content. Only fans is obviously not for everyone. Right. And you know, there are certain restrictions in terms of, you know, people should be adults, right? It shouldn't be anyone under age and people, you know, it should be done only with material that people are consenting to share.
India Thusi
00:14:19
Right. It shouldn't be any sort of, you know, material that was taken from someone and they didn't consent to be shared online. Right. There should be these kind of clear restrictions. However, if someone's in a situation where like there are other options are kind of limited or where they feel that, you know, this is the amount, this is an area where I can make a living that I otherwise would not be able to make and really provide for myself and my family. Then perhaps this can be an Ambien for them. And then, you know, only fans, you know, if you're people who aren't interested in, you know, seeing or producing that type of content, there are other forums on only, you know, there are a number of people who are actually on the only fans now, a number of celebrities and, you know, the lake who are using it to just build intimate connections with their fan base.
India Thusi
00:14:59
And so I think there are ways to do that,
Katie Chonacas
00:15:01
A couple of different things and thank you for all this insight and value and just opening up the space even more. I really am touch and like the idea and aspect of the ones who choose to do this, they were doing in a safer way without actually being physically touch, you know, like they could still make a living and do what they need to do without being touched, you know, like, like by another physical person for, in safety or putting themselves in a situation on a psychological level of, into someone's house or like, you know, actually like being pushed within certain boundaries where you can just like click end or shut the computer or whatever like that. If someone's like over it, they could just like easily shut the computer and get out. Cause I've heard a lot of times, especially when the, me too came out, that a lot of people, you know, they've been in situations where it's a flight freeze, freeze flight, right.
Katie Chonacas
00:15:48
Where you just get stuck and numb. And in the moment, you know, where you get put in a position and people reflect back like, or you've even heard in public courtrooms, it's like, well, why didn't you just say no? Or why didn't you just leave? And you hear so many times in the workplace, like your prefrontal cortex has no rationalization. It closes down, you go to fight and flight and you freeze and you're just like frozen. And then the moment passes. And then you're just like what the F just happened, you know? And it's like, in retrospect, going back or like people like us or people like who, you know, have a voice to share other with their experience, they're like, this is what happens. So when you're in a position, have these tools before going in. So, you know, like, okay, this is happening. Like, no matter what, when you freeze, it just means leave.
Katie Chonacas
00:16:28
Like, just leave. So in this situation, cause you're not in physical, you're online, you can just close the computer, you know what I mean? You could block that person. So, wow. And cause you know, there are over what, 8 billion people in the world. So I'm just not, I'm not speaking about anyone. I'm just speaking in general, you know, and just kind of like hashing out some things because we have well over 60 to 70,000 thoughts per day, according to Dr. Joe Dispenza and 90% of those thoughts have the same thoughts. So like we have these thoughts that are ruminating. And so I love having you on so we can like hash out some of these thoughts and learn about new things. So that's one thing that comes up and then yeah. So any thoughts on that? Yeah.
India Thusi
00:17:04
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the safety that the online space might provide that, well, not might that actually it provides for people who would otherwise be working and like let's say street based locations or other, you know, riskier situations is, is important. And you know, there have actually been sex work advocacy groups that have come out and spoken about this when only fans' was considering removing all the sexually explicit content and going in a different direction and response to restrictions from credit card companies, they, people came out and spoke about, you know, some of the harms that would come from that. They spoke about the fact that actually, you know, you're doing this, you know, supposedly to restrict sex trafficking.
India Thusi
00:17:47
But in fact, what you're going to do is perpetuate it because people who would be able to screen out and assure that they're in really safe spaces, won't have the online space anymore. They won't be able to even communicate with each other in ways that they've been able to communicate with each other previously. And so you're actually creating more risky situations. You're creating more dangerous situations. So definitely, you know, that online space can actually provide a safer space for people who are engaging in sex work or in sexual activities in the online way. And I think it's easy to miss that.
Katie Chonacas
00:18:19
The thing that makes me kind of query in a weary, I guess, to say, and like really sad is, you know, like the visceral images and things you can see online. Like I didn't search for any videos and stuff. I'm sure there's certain laws about like, if it can't be recorded and things of that nature, but of course there's leaks and you can't trust anyone, especially when you're doing literally dirty business that maybe one would call it, but, or that kind, it's like very exposing yourself in a very vulnerable way on two sides of the street. And you have to think about your friends and your family and the privacy. So like, you know, it's kind of sad, you know, that like someone may feel obligated to do something like that. Maybe people want to, and they just want that kind of attention and fame and are people who just want to be known in a very sexual way. And that's fine. That's totally cool. But I'm sure there are a lot of people on there who are doing it, who don't feel morally right about doing it.
Katie Chonacas
00:19:03
They feel like they have to do it. Cause I know a lot as humans, like we do things cause we like, there's like quotes about like, you know, the, at the end of the day, it's like regretting and you know, apologizing to sell for putting ourselves through something that we thought we had to grow and go through, but we actually did it. And then you reflect back that it wasn't worth it. But a lot of times as humans, we put ourselves through something because we think we have to make ends meet or we have to do something. So I'm sure there's a lot of people like who might want to do it, but I'm sure there are people who, who maybe don't and they're shaming, they're blamed and they're doing anyway. And then they're taking a chance about having themselves exposed because it's online. So it can be recorded. It can be, you know, still images, photography. I mean, I'm sure, you know, you could get a lawyer and go to court and then, but you still get dragged down in the race for two, five years, whatever, going out in the court system.
Katie Chonacas
00:19:47
And we, we know about law and the systems and how they play out. So any thoughts about those things?
India Thusi
00:19:51
Yeah. I mean, I think you're right and you're kind of going to sort of a more fundamental issue, right? That we live in a society that maybe someone feels like they have to do something or engage in some sort of labor or work that they really don't want to in order to provide for themselves. And I think that is a fundamental issue. I think you see it, you know, whether you're talking about sex trades or other sorts of labor, minimum wage work, or, you know, people working in coal, mines, people, domestic workers, whatever the case may be. And I think, you know, that's kind of going to some fundamental issues we have in terms of how do we ensure that everyone can be provided for that people can engage in the type of labor that they choose to, if they want to engage in, you know, labor and how do we really rethink the society that we exist in.
India Thusi
00:20:36
And I think that's kind of like a big question. Like how do we provide assured that people are able to provide for all their material needs? But I don't think, you know, eliminating certain classes, things is the word is a way because it often pushes people who are in desperate situations into even more desperate situations. I think, really think about how do we support people on how, how did they say they need to be supported.
Katie Chonacas
00:20:59
Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Well, well said, well received, well said, well said niching in even more. So for example, like I have, you know, I'll just use me as the muse here. Let's say I have all these people, which I do, you know, like on the DMS writing me like people I don't follow, but that write me and one of it. So that would be a form of intimacy that I could want put on an only fans of people who are liking my work as a model, as an actor, as a podcast or as talent, whatever. And so instead of having it on a Patrion, you know, it's more of an intimate way. And I guess it's one checking in with oneself of like that you want that, that intimacy to be that currency to be that intimate connection of them just being fans, or do you want to put it on a only fans thing?
Katie Chonacas
00:21:41
Cause that's what they are, they're the fans and you're connecting with them, but do we allocate that and have it be free of charge or take those things if it's a nuance or is it a nuance or do you, you know, put it on that platform. So that's something to question and find out ethically if that would be okay to do, you know, I guess one could like start messy, try something out. And if it works out, it works out and if it doesn't, it doesn't also, you know, in respect of like marketing and like, you know, stories I've heard personally from 50 50 cent, you know, I went on tour with him in 2007, 2008. And what people do on purpose, like create controversy on purpose for like marketing and playing the system and the people. It could be a thing of like, and like certain people, I won't mention names who came to Hollywood and they were not a lesbian.
Katie Chonacas
00:22:25
And she said she was a lesbian just because she was gorgeous. And she just got eyes on her. And she quickly worked in Hollywood because she said she was a lesbian and then ended up with like, you know, these males who were very famous and, and not, you know, so there are marketing things or things that people do. Do you think the celebrities who are on the only fans are maybe doing that as a part of a marketing thing or just to empower their brand, to be a part of something that's an illusion and kind of playing the system in that way or the celebrities maybe that you know of that who are on there? Cause I don't know any that are, cause I haven't done that kind of research. I guess I could Google and just say, Hey, what celebrities are on only fans and see how they're utilizing the platforms, but based on what, you know, what you think, how is that from, you know, a different perspective?
India Thusi
00:23:09
I mean, there could be all sorts of motivations for why people go on the only fans, maybe it's just for marketing, maybe it's, you know, they really do want to build an intimate connection. Maybe they think that they could just make a little bit more money often. I think it could be a mix of all those things. And I think what only fans can offer people, what you might do differently than let's say in a DM, maybe you have prescheduled calls with like certain individuals and they're paying for the calls at the same time they're paying because they want to speak to you. They want to get to know you better. Right. You know, a, it could be, you know, taking them on like a day in the life. Like what do you do? What are you, what does it look like? You know, showing them all the pieces of, you know, your normal life, as opposed to the part that you just want to show to the public and maybe only those people and your only fans on might get a glimpse of that.
India Thusi
00:23:56
You know? So in terms of some of the celebrities that are on there, I, I believe, you know, Bella Thorne was on there and it was this huge, there's a bit of a controversy around it because I think, no, she made this really substantial amount of money from like provocative pictures that she posted on there for, you know, her fans. I think it was like $2 million in a span of just a couple of days. And so there's probably some celebrities on there because, you know, they feel like they can make a little bit more money. People are interested in seeing more of them and they feel comfortable sharing more of themselves and in whatever ways and it could be photos or it could be video chats, it can be Skypes. There's all different ways that, you know, people can use only fans to create that kind of intimacy.
Katie Chonacas
00:24:40
Yeah. Because I mean, people are doing it on the reels on Instagram, on Tik TOK on YouTube. So it's like kind of the same thing, but in a, in a subscription way kind of like Patrion. So it doesn't have to only be like that one only thing that it has its reputation for it. There's more to it. So I'm glad we were really hashed out and talk about it because I think it empowers women who maybe don't know and maybe they don't have a law background. Maybe they don't have certain tools and outlets of people they can talk to. And, you know, we're here to create opportunities and space and education for all. So on there's only fans only for female identifying people or is it for everyone
India Thusi
00:25:14
That's for everyone? I think actually Michael B. Jordan might have at some point had an only fans.
Katie Chonacas
00:25:20
Okay. Okay. Okay. And kind of diving in since we're kind of on this subject, but aligning to sex trafficking, what do you think, where are you with it solutions, any acclimates that you are proud of that you've seen and more work that needs to be done? I mean, that's a low, those are loaded thoughts and questions, but what, whatever you want to speak on, that would be awesome. Sure.
India Thusi
00:25:42
So you just to define it, you know, sex trafficking is someone engaging in, you know, forced labor relating to sex and force, meaning that they're being forced either by fraud or coercion. And you know, then they're engaging in the sexual labor, this, you know, in without their consent. And so, you know, there are strong laws that prohibit sex trafficking. I think sex trafficking is terrible and something that, you know, we should be working to eradicate in, in society. Now what's important though, to note is that sex trafficking is actually different from sex work. But it's important to note that because at times people will confuse the two of them.
India Thusi
00:26:26
And that distinction between sex trafficking, which is done by fraud or coercion and people are being forced is a really important distinction because at times there have been these laws passed that, say that they're aimed at sex trafficking, but are really addressing sex work. Sex trafficking is really focused on people being forced into sexual labor, where sex work is, where people are making that choice. Now there have been some laws that are in the past. So for example, there's a law that Congress passed that goes by fossa and the second law Acessa and it stated that it was in that eliminating sex trafficking.
India Thusi
00:27:07
But what it actually did was prevents sex workers who posts on online platforms. So like Craigslist or even back page, it prevented them from being able to do so on these online platforms and the results of them not being able to do so on these online platforms was that they weren't able to screen their clients. And when they weren't able to screen the clients, they said that they ended up in more violent situations that these online platforms actually allowed them to communicate with each other, tell each other, Hey, don't go to this client. This person's a problem, you know, have this kind of online community. And so that type of communication that they have with each other ended up being prohibited right now, this law complaints to be about eradicating sex trafficking.
India Thusi
00:27:51
But what it ended up doing is creating more violent situations for sex workers. So I think it's really important to note this distinction and to know that like we're focused on sex trafficking, that we need to make sure that the laws are now only tailored to people who are sex trafficking victims. That way we can actually focus on them and target them. Another issue that comes with laws that focus on sex workers as opposed to sex trafficking victims, is that sex workers are often the individuals who are able to identify when someone's a sex trafficking victim. They're often ones who are able to say that because they're the willing to be the ones working closely with these individuals. So they're often the ones who report someone to different law enforcement officials.
India Thusi
00:28:32
They're often the ones who are able to identify it. And they're also the ones involved in stating that someone's a sex trafficking victim because they see it and they're interacting with those people.
Katie Chonacas
00:28:40
Wow. They're like angels in a way.
India Thusi
00:28:42
So I guess
Katie Chonacas
00:28:43
They're doing service out there. They're like regulating that kind of business.
India Thusi
00:28:47
Yes. Yes. And they would be the ones who are best at
Katie Chonacas
00:28:50
It's a big business. It's a big business. We're very primal beings. People like have exacts. There are people out there addiction is very popular and people they're sex addicts. I mean, it's not a secret, like we're primal. We like touch. We like feeling, we like pleasure. And you know, there's a lot of twisted things out there, so twisted things are happening. And so yeah, while these sex workers are actually, you know, in service of like, you know, for the universe, like supporting the injustice of sex trafficking, this is, this is, wow, thank you for sharing.
India Thusi
00:29:18
Yeah. I mean, they're often the ones who are identifying it and what happens when we target sex workers and they feel like they're being marginalized or they don't feel comfortable going to authorities when they see someone who's a sex trafficking victim, because they feel like they're going to be arrested or what they're engaged in is going to be problematized. Then they don't go and report these, the sex trafficking victims don't provide the same level of support. And so that ends up creating a more risky situation for those sex trafficking victims. Right. And so, you know, I guess the point of what I'm seeing is that at times the ways that we fashioned the laws don't actually address what they're intended to address, they ended up creating more difficult situations for the people who we say that we're trying to protect.
India Thusi
00:30:03
So it ends up creating a more difficult situation for sex trafficking victims. You know, you think that, okay, we'll say that all sex work is going to be criminalized and that we're just going to remove an online and that's going to help sex trafficking victims. And instead, what it creates is more dangerous situations for sex workers, sex workers are less willing to report when they see sex trafficking victims, because they think they're going to be arrested or accused of being, you know, trafficker or whatever the case may be. No, I was just saying the laws don't often make sense.
Katie Chonacas
00:30:32
So what happens is with the law, they're trying to eradicate it like, oh, it like it doesn't exist, which is turning a blind eye, turning a blind eye, minimize it act like it's not there. Keep on going. And then another area are these humans that are in fear and they're, they're dim down and they're hiding and isolating and not speaking up. And this unhealthy behavior and this abusive behavior keeps happening is what I'm hearing.
India Thusi
00:30:58
Yeah,
Katie Chonacas
00:30:59
Exactly. So if someone on here has funds, if they have funds and they want to contribute and, or volunteer and, you know, be added value in some way to take action, be a part, is there a website or two where you send people that would be really good for this topic?
India Thusi
00:31:18
Sure. I think that looking into the organization coyote, so that's C O Y O T E in the U S is a good organization that focuses on sex work advocacy as well as the sex workers project, which is based out of New York that provides direct services work as well as advocacy on behalf of sex workers, as well as sex trafficking victims. And so those are two great organizations that work closely with these groups. And then you can learn more about from, and also support
Katie Chonacas
00:31:49
It's the first I heard of them and I live in New York city. So, so yeah. Thank you for sharing that really, really appreciate you really, really important topics. Anything else before we pivot in elsewhere? No. Okay. Well, I mean, that's a very impactful and a great conversation thus far and it can, you know, so see to be inspired, to research more, take more action and, and share this with others, especially not only females, but everyone, you know. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. You know, on the topic of, you know, criminal justice and injustices.
Katie Chonacas
00:32:30
Oh, well you were saying when we first started, one of my favorite books is called the Republic by Plato and it's all about just an unjust. So it just came up for me when you were speaking earlier and you know, child protective services, it's so difficult because, you know, I'm sure with, you know, a lot of the law it's state to state and then within states, it's governed city to city and every city in every state has their own laws. So how can we all get on the same page if there's so many barriers and hoops to jump? I mean, it just seems quite impossible and it's a lot, it's a lot of collective work we need to do.
Katie Chonacas
00:33:11
But any thoughts in that? Because like, actually before, I just want to say is, this is like this relates to the topics we were just talking about. It's like, we're children, right? We're we're all children, right? We're we're children, there's child protective services. There's injustices in the homes and you call child protective services. They're underfunded. You tried to go to child protective services to support and you go in there. And as long as they have electricity, as long as they have some food, as long as the kid's head, isn't cracked open, as long as the mother isn't, you know, prostituting or, you know, in, in some kind of thing while the child's there, unless it's something like that, they, the child protective services, they do not want to break off families and they do not want to take the child out of the home.
Katie Chonacas
00:33:52
I understand I wanting to break up families, but those very children who are stuck in those on fortunate circumstances, our children, and now what happens X amount of years later, those children are adults and they've been taught these horrible things, bad behaviors, horrible circumstances. They had no love, no attention. Their fire is totally out there bitter and whatever on life, not every one, some of them. And then they, you know, kills steel, cheap prostitution, sex workers, all these things, right? And never given a chance, never given an opportunity, never given a clean slate in life to start off at a, at an ethical baseline.
Katie Chonacas
00:34:32
And then what humans do is they shame and they blame. And they point fingers at those adults. When those adults are just little kids running around, they're the same kids. We had compassion for. They're the same kids we were wanting to help. But now they're young adults or elder adults with, you know, twisted formats and twisted ways of being and thinking since orally from, you know, habitual bad patterns. So it's like, I'm very rubbed up about this. Obviously you can see, but I just think there's so much injustice in the systems and I am not into law. And it's like, you know, like from your perspective of what you're hearing, anything you want to add, like what can we do or how do you feel, or what is being done or, you know, things of that nature and how people can help, you know, cause it's important.
Katie Chonacas
00:35:16
Like we are children in this universe, even when we're young adults we're still, or the elder adults were still those children running around who didn't have the support and nourishment when child protective services was not called.
India Thusi
00:35:30
So I agree that we don't do enough to support people in this society. Like we don't do enough to support people after they've been dealing with trauma. We don't do enough to support, you know, families who are struggling, right? Like providing, for example, like affordable childcare where people are able to go and, you know, do decent living that they want to do. And then still be able to feel comfortable that their children will be well taken care of and you know, be able to, you know, have their needs basic needs met. We're just not doing enough to support people. Especially now we're at a time where a lot of people are desperate, you know, after the pandemic, during a pandemic, you know, people, a lot of people lost their jobs or just trying to figure things out.
India Thusi
00:36:13
You know, there was some distraction. Some people have lost many people, not some people have lost family members lost the support that they used to have for their families and are still trying to figure it out. You know, our legislators, our federal legislators, aren't doing enough. They're not getting their act together when they were providing support for children for, you know, the beginning of the pandemic, they haven't renewed that. I just got a notice from my kid's school that they've been providing free lunches for all children in schools. And they're not going to do it next year, or it seems like they may not be doing that next year. So you imagine all the children who, you know, didn't, who were close to qualifying for free lunch, but just didn't buy. So just a little bit how that's going to be a real struggle for their families who are also dealing with other forms of trauma.
India Thusi
00:36:55
And, you know, we were just not doing enough to support people. So I, I worry, I worry about where we are right now as a society. I mean, you spoke about the system that's, you know, intended to regulate, you know, families and children, you know, imagine like what difficult seas we're going to be dealing with with so many children who are really behind in school because of, you know, the pandemic, some children weren't able to keep up. Other children were not right. What are going to be some of the harms that come with that, you know, there's, we just have, we should be doing more than usual and we're barely doing the bare minimum. And so I'm concerned, I share your concern about now, what are we going to see in the next 15 years as a result of this? Like what is going to be the outcome of, you know, not dealing with the trauma that we're all dealing with actually in this moment because of no dealing with this pandemic because of, you know, all the loss that so many people I've dealt with.
India Thusi
00:37:46
I think we're just at a moment where we're not fully supported and you know, some of what you were saying, it was just illustrating the ways that we don't support people enough where we don't support children. If we don't give them what they need to be able to grow up, thrive, do well and, you know, reach their full potential. And, you know, I think we need to do better
Katie Chonacas
00:38:04
1000, 1,001,000. Thank you for your words. And I know this is like a broader vision, right? And there's micro details that go along with it, but in kind of what you were saying, kind of that con what comes up for me is like, okay, if these child protective services, right? Cause it starts from reverse engineering and from the inside and these, I get, we get why the law, while the system doesn't want to break up a family. But look at America, look, look at society. Like it's not working, it's already broken. Like systems are falling down. Corporations are changing. Like where are you evolving as human beings, you know, in such ways. And so like, like what happens is when, when your child and you get to a certain age and we do leave the family home, what happens a lot of times, I'm, you know, in New York and LA and I saw I'm in these bigger cities, there are people who will never go home and visit their families.
Katie Chonacas
00:38:54
Right. And what happens is you become you, then you have your, your blood family, then you have your chosen family. And there are people out there who create families and communities because they don't feel at home and family with their own family. So when we're young adults, we have the option and the choice to find communities to be a part of. But what if there's in child protective services within the govern law that there's like, you know, facilities, you know, not an orphan type, but more of a communal family type where these people can go and be a part of a grand or family, like in call humanity, family, we're all family, we're all one and with diversity and, but have that educational aspect of love and nourishment. Like, I feel like people such as like yourself, you know, who know the law, you know, and you, like you were talking about earlier, like fundamentals and structure.
Katie Chonacas
00:39:44
That's what I need more of in my life. All right. Like, I am like, I don't wanna say lacking that I'm not like a fundamental generational kind of structure person, but someone who has that kind of structure would bring in someone like me or a nurse or someone like you to have that love, patience, compassion, to teach, to educate and things of that nature. But there has to be like the bridge in between of it being financed, you know, a community wallet or some kind of thing to bridge the gap. And I really feel like a crypto web three could possibly, you know, bring that with some kind of outline. But like, I mean, how wonderful, I mean, like, I don't know.
Katie Chonacas
00:40:25
It depends cause you know, there's family that's involved in the birth certificate and then, and then the parents saying yes, to be able to like, let your child go live in this more family communal healthy space. Because obviously like when a mother bursts or someone bursts their, you know, their child, it's like, they feel like they own them until they're 18 and there's that attachment. So there's attachment issues. So that's, that's unhealthy and it's its own. Right. So, I mean, it's all clearly all over the place, but I mean, I see just like in a, you know, in a grand level of peace and harmony of just protecting these humans, you know, and, and having them be in a space where it's safe, where it is safe, you know?
Katie Chonacas
00:41:05
So yeah. Any thoughts on that?
India Thusi
00:41:07
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, thinking about alternative tractors where people can choose to, you know, make their own families and support each other, I think we saw a little bit that last couple of years there was this real growth in mutual aid where people were supporting each other as opposed to, you know, going through just a charity system, but like communities coming together, sharing money with each other pooling together to support people's needs. And so I think there are different ways that that can happen where people are just setting up new systems of supporting and caring and new structures.
Katie Chonacas
00:41:42
Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay. So pivoting, and as we hone in on this impactful episode feminism, what does feminism mean to you?
India Thusi
00:41:51
So for me to be feminist means that you are concerned with assuring that everyone, women, them, individuals, women identify, and individuals have access to equal equitable opportunities, status, and experiences in life. So that's the way that I would define it. It's just really ensuring that we all can thrive in society. And you know, that's how I think about feminism.
Katie Chonacas
00:42:18
And what does femme mean?
India Thusi
00:42:19
Fem would be someone who is female identifying or her who has abused themselves in more of a feminine spirits. And so it was just a, a broader kind of conception of what it means to be a woman.
Katie Chonacas
00:42:33
Yeah. So season four is all about women empowerment series and exploring divine femininity in all genders. So what does that mean for you, you know, feminism and then exploring divine femininity in all genders, like what are one or two takeaways that maybe someone could ponder or something you've pondered on?
India Thusi
00:42:51
I think embracing your feminine spirit of bracing, you know, womanhood embracing, you know, the things that we described as being more feminine and, you know, tapping into that and seeing it as a strength, as opposed to a weakness, you know, for people who are listening, they won't see that I have pink hair, but part of the reason I chose pink hair is that I realized a couple of years ago that I never wore the color pink. And I asked myself, why don't I wear the color pink? And I realized the reason I don't is because I thought it was too feminine. And I had a daughter around that period of time who loves pink. And I said, why would I reject the feminine? Like, why am I rejecting?
India Thusi
00:43:31
And you know, why can't pink also be gender neutral? Why can't I embrace it? And I just started to embrace pink. Right. And so for me, it was a small way of just embracing femininity as a strength, as opposed to a weakness. And, you know, seeing that there is power in that.
Katie Chonacas
00:43:48
What a great story. I love that story. Wow. That's so cool. I'm so happy. I asked that question. That's so thank you for sharing that. That's so neat. How cute. What's your little one's name?
India Thusi
00:43:59
Islah
Katie Chonacas
00:44:01
He'll kill. And then last but not least, do you have one or two, you know, divine, feminine people, you look up to maybe a, the person can tune in and, and do some research or YouTube video, or maybe read a book that would be really empowering.
India Thusi
00:44:17
Sure. So one person that I always mentioned is Katherine denim. And so she was a dancer and anthropologist, and I just always admired her. The fact that she was able to engage in this work is serious academic, this anthropologist, but combine it with her love of dance. And she studied dance during these spiritual rituals in the Haiti. And so, and she actually helped develop one modern dance technique. And so she's someone I feel like I draw a lot of inspiration from balancing the creative side with that academic side. Another person is Constance baker Motley. And so she was a lawyer with the NAACP.
India Thusi
00:44:58
She was also a federal judge and the district court in New York and someone who I also look at as a role model.
Katie Chonacas
00:45:07
Wow. Thank you so much. First time I've heard about these two people, so I'm definitely going to look them up and do my own research and wow. Thank you so much India for being with us and she's all over the place. Where can people find you? Everything will be in the show notes, but where can people find you in the best way to get in contact?
India Thusi
00:45:22
Sure. People can find me on Twitter. So my handle is I N G E R R I. You can also find me on my faculty webpage. So if you search India TC that's T H U S I M it will be the first page that shows up.
Katie Chonacas
00:45:38
Cool. And when your episode comes out, the week of I'll host you in Twitter spaces, we'll do a Twitter spaces and we'll honor you in the episode and we'll have another conversation. So more people can hear the episode and tune in.
India Thusi
00:45:47
Wonderful. Thank you. Thanks for having
Katie Chonacas
00:45:49
Me. Oh yeah, my pleasure. Thank you, India. Okay, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in, share this with one person posted on Facebook, your social media handles all the platforms. That would be awesome. A follow me, go to my website. <inaudible> dot com, C H O N a C a S. I have an automation set up. So it'll send you a pink sheet, a divine feminine energy that I respected in Meyer in web three and crypto people that you can follow to be educated and do your own research. And they're on Twitter and they're on Instagram. So just go to <inaudible> dot com. Also, I have amazing merge of my new NFT. So definitely check those out and a special shout out to the nomad, a Boulevard crew.
Katie Chonacas
00:46:29
I just won. They gifted me a new nomad. So now I have two nomads and I named him on Ray and he is from France. He's from the France Boulevard. He's super cool. So anyway, we'll see you next week on she's all over the place. Take good care. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next time over and out.
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